Well, his line manager was Martin Barrow, who'd come into the room with Patrick Foster, and said to me right at the beginning of the conversation, "We have a problem with a story that Patrick is working on." So the line manager quite clearly knew the background to this. As the line manager of the man who's in charge of the newsroom and stories which go and do not go into the Times, I regarded the line manager as the person directly who would be discussing things with Patrick. Patrick's not my direct -- people in my department come under my control. Patrick didn't come under my control. So Martin Barrow, as the person who was directly in control of Patrick, would be the person who I assumed would take up that kind of matter.
Patrick had spoken to me, as I said, off the record, but in a confidential way, which -- and he then apologised. When I said, "God, you just can't have done this, can you?" -- I'm afraid the language was very explicit, because I was very cross with him for having done this, and he said, "Look, Alastair, I'm really sorry, I won't do it again", because I said to him, "Look, if you ever do this again, you'll get the sack, just have no doubt about that", and so --