Yes, I will.

Mm. I can see the problem. I think there is a practical problem there behind it, but practical problems can be overcome and it may be they need to be, but it's certainly -- it's not something I'm afraid I've given sufficient thought to. I will do.

Yes.

They will be.

As I've mentioned, there is the leg-in basket, but otherwise, the system, no.

I think that's probably --

I think it's called honest opinion now rather than fair comment, but I recognise that.

Yes, I take that point on board, and I think the PCC code has recently changed with regard to matters on that, and I think it may be something we have to look at and consider. I'm just aware of the practicalities of it, and articles that are published ...

No, there isn't. These are decisions that are -- and debates that take place from sort of 6 o'clock to 7 o'clock to 8 o'clock, standing at the back bench of the newspaper and looking at copy, looking at proposed headlines and things. There is no record ...

Or very often, one puts certain paragraphs and one says, "These are legal musts", or one says at the top of the copy: "For goodness sake, balance this out", or: "Don't just run ..." Invariably the copy is much longer than the story that appears, and what you don't ...

Having discussed the case with an editor or news editor or whatever, one would then -- the hard -- a copy is put into the machine and one then simply types out "delete this" or "add that" or a note to the subeditor: "For Pete's sake, don't do X."

No. At no time in my career have I made notes about the legal advice that I've given each night. I only -- I don't think it would really be possible. There's so much material that comes in. There's so much work.

One remembers that the system ...

Absolutely right, sir. That's absolutely right. So my concentration is always going to be on what material there is on the record that I can rely on to prove this meaning. I make an assessment on what I think the meaning is and I then say, "What material is ...

If the system works properly, the lawyer, be it me or the night lawyer, will have an input onto that. The concentration is not so much where the original source comes from. That's partly that -- with regard, for example, to libel. Talking about working at the coalface, one's ...

Yes.

Yes.

People -- I didn't hear rumours, but people speculated and wondered whether that had happened. I was very concerned that it should not have happened, and I did speak to people and ask people who I thought might know, and ask and say, "Had it happened?" and I was assured ...

No. That was training specifically onto the News of the World with regard to issues, so it was organised and run by the managing editor of the News of the World.

The Sun's training has been organised through the managing editor's department, and that has very largely been ...

Yes.

Yes.

Yes. With regard to criminal matters, obviously the editor is going to come and say, "I want this handled entirely by the lawyers and I expect it to be done in such a way that the journalist is not arrested", and that's why I would have an input directly ...

Absolutely, sir. But obviously --

I'm so sorry if I've given the impression in any way that the ultimate decision on anything is mine. It's not. The ultimate decision on anything going into the paper or anything done by people in the newspaper is going to be for editorial. I'm so ...

Well, if it was contrary to the civil law as well. If it was going to be a breach of confidence or whatever, that would be a matter that I think the lawyer would advise on, yes, sir.

I think that if it were an ethical issue rather than a legal issue, I think that would probably be something that the editor and the managing editor might look at, the ethical matter, whether that came under the PCC code. I would hope that I would have an input ...

I'm sure I must, sir, but I can't think of an example straight off.

Well, in such circumstances, I'm insistent that the journalist goes straight from the purchasing of the drugs -- and obviously they don't know at that stage whether they've purchased the drugs -- to a testing house -- I like it to be done straight away -- and the drugs are left ...

Yes.

Of course, the example here, sir, would be not simply an ethical point; it would be a legal point. We would have to be extremely careful about a journalist purchasing drugs. We did a story towards the end of last year, an expose when a journalist purchased drugs -- I think ...

Right.

I'm so sorry, sir. Off the top of my head, I can't put an example to you. I suppose that it's possible that there could be examples of such a public interest.

I think it's undoubtedly true that with regard to perhaps some celebrities, there is ...

I suppose it always depends upon what material on the privacy case is put in front of the judge at what stage. Every case is different. Every case is going to be an intense focus on the facts. I personally don't have a complaint about the duty judge system ...

Yes.

As a matter of fact, I personally have not found it a problem. We had, last year on the Sun, quite a number of injunctions where we did pre-notify. They were privacy injunctions and I don't have any complaint about the judges we went in front -- we were put ...

Yes, sir.

No, it would be a small number, because I think a large amount of the pre-notification is probably on matters that are not private. There would be points of facts to check, and that's quite right.

But where there is a privacy issue and advice has been taken on ...

Yes.

Well, the stories that I'm involved in, a large part of the time, a very, very substantial part of the time. My own feeling as a lawyer is that it is wholly -- it's absolutely correct journalism to go to the other side, and a large number of libel ...

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

I'm obviously interested and passionate about it, and I'm sorry to get carried away. Yes.

I'm so sorry, my fault.

A classic example. Had the decision been taken not to put the photograph in -- and as I think in one of the courts, at any rate, it was raised: why not use a sort of -- you know, just an ordinary picture of her and not outside her front door? We ...

To put it bluntly, yes. But I hope it's not a risk in terms of sort of deliberately breaching court orders or anything like that, or publishing pictures of people who are rape victims or anything like that. It's very often a matter of -- you know, particularly with ...

Most, nearly all the time, the advice will be accepted. I don't actually believe that there's any in-house lawyer can last at a newspaper group unless the relationship is such that advice is being given and advice is being accepted. The relationship -- you have to have a trust ...

I think that's absolutely right, sir. I don't -- and I suspect this is true of my colleagues on other newspapers -- see myself as having an editorial role. It's a very exciting place to be working in. It's very creative, immensely pressured just in that hour or ...

Yes. There is a system, basically -- and I hope I've set it out here, sir -- you can see the paper is libel-read. The paper will be looked through by a lawyer and various stories will be put into the legal in-basket and will be amended and pushed back, and ...

Yes.

Right.