Okay.

Yes.

Yes.

-- to say how the service is going to respond to these issues.

But I think it is about trying to set clear rules of engagement, it is about making sure that everyone understands them, that there is a way of monitoring and checking, and there is enforcement. And where the challenge becomes even more difficult now than in my time is if ...

Before Christmas, I spent some time with Sir Dennis O'Connor, the chief inspector of the constabulary, trying to give them a bit of a feel for how the inspectorate could be helping with this process. So I think the "Without fear or favour" report again has added some interesting ...

Yes, I will, sir. I mean, I was out of the country for the last week, so I haven't had a chance to -- I think -- did Richard Baker give evidence yesterday?

Yes.

Yes.

Right.

Yes.

I think the challenge is to find that something which avoids the massive bureaucracy, which will be superficial, and something that really hits the spot, that does encourage change that is lasting, and so there are issues around how the press are -- whether it's self-regulation or something stronger, there ...

And malpractice in any walk of life is very basic. It's about human weakness and opportunity, and those two things are omnipresent. So what I said earlier was in no way to suggest that your job is done at this stage because the oxygen of publicity around these concerns ...

Yes, I do, sir. The history of police malpractice is cyclical, and it goes something like: scandal, inquiry, remedial action, relaxation, complacency, scandal, inquiry ... and that's been on about a 20-year cycle.

Yes.

Based on what is in the public domain, primarily from what has happened in your Inquiry, sir, I have been very disappointed and concerned by some of the issues that have emerged, and I would have been -- had I still been involved in the service, I would have been probably ...

Yes.

Yes.

No, thank you very much.

No, as I say, I think you've covered all of the ground. Since leaving the service I have worked on integrity issues in sport, in business and so on, and I think the rules of engagement are pretty similar across the piece, and if you want to deal with ...

Well, I -- I mean, I was thinking of, if asked, what should change, what could change. I think in many ways this Inquiry, your role, the publicity, has already generated massive corrective action, and it's a question of what more needs to be done to be built on that ...

That is quite difficult to answer, in the sense that there can't be a free-for-all. You can't allow the most junior or the most senior police officer to just busk it on the day. I believe there has to be -- there have to be in place very strong ...

No, no. I remember at the time thinking: what has caused him to go off on this campaign? And it died as quickly -- it just seemed to be -- I think those were in the early days of his chat -- talk radio sort of shock-jock radio channel, and certainly for a ...

Yes. There's a sort of serendipity of how it gets into my statement, in the sense that when I was trying to research issues around leaks and so on -- and you sort of dredge out of your senile mind memories of sort of going back -- I could remember a ...

Yes, in a general way. I think they're always a concern. Again, you reluctantly don't accept but you sort of grudgingly acknowledge that, in a force of 45,000 men and women, police and civilian, occasionally there may be leaks, for mixed motivation and probably occasionally for financial ...

No, no. But in fairness, I think most of the book deals would have been linked to serialisation and may have embraced the Times or the Sunday Times.

Right. Yes, again I declined not because I saw anything morally or ethically wrong per se; it just -- having spent my career sort of trying to major on integrity, independence, being apolitical, it just seemed that I would have to take decisions and be partial and be drawn into favouring ...

Yes. I saw it as -- as I say, there were so few and occasional, and in some years there wouldn't have been any. As I say, it was -- it was not something I encouraged or wished to do, but it was -- there were certain individuals, if I wanted a ...

Yes.

Yes, yes, and so I -- you know, I have no recollection of those, so that probably tells me that no, there probably weren't anyway.

Right. I don't know, and there's a technical reason why I wouldn't know. Until fairly late in my time as Commissioner, until I got the police discipline rules changed, the Commissioner was the appellate authority for discipline in London, and so I was kept -- the Commissioner of ...

Yes.

Because I think every meeting with the press that involves hospitality should be able to pass what some people have described as the sort of blush test: would you be happy for the Home Secretary or a local politician or your neighbour or a member of your family -- does this ...

I believe so, yes. And again, all -- everyone in the chain of command down to chief superintendent was briefed on this, and so it's police technical jargon, but everyone running an operational or command unit -- that's a major police station or a major specialist squad -- had to keep ...

Yes.

Yes.

Again, it was a reinforcement of trying to encourage best behaviour and discourage bad behaviour, and so it set out, in bullet points, some of the big issues that faced us around hospitality.

It set it in the contextual setting of what Nolan had said about principles of public life. It set it in the context of our five-year strategy, something called "The London Beat".

Yes.

Again, coming in as a Commissioner, seeking to reinforce, culturally and through rules and procedures, the best behaviour -- and contextually, remember, this was at about the time of all the cash for questions, the Nolan Report, principles of public life and so on, and I was determined that the Met ...

Yes. Would it help if I set the context for that?

Yes, I have it now.

No.

No, I haven't, sir. I still have -- I'm looking at paragraph 21 of my statement.

I would rather deal with the policy first, if I may, sir, because I think it then leads more naturally onto how I behaved in relation to the policy.

Fine. Sequentially, if you like, one thing leads to the other.

I'm not sure if you're going to ask me, but in 1997 I introduced a very strong policy around hospitality --

Yes.

Yes. I mean, that's with the benefit of hindsight, because since leaving the service I have gone on to work and deal with integrity in international sport, and dealing with integrity in the business community, and I think it's just common sense that in any walk of life ...

I guess it's a question of personal style and comfort zones and I think over the years, in policing and beyond, I think I understand the media, and I think whilst you're Commissioner, you have certain professional relationships and you make life more difficult for yourself if those ...