Thank you very much, and thank you.

No idea.

Sorry?

Yes.

So on other occasions he might go to the TPU, you know, on routine matters, and the note that was sent was a fairly routine matter of the technology. That's the point I was making. It was -- you haven't asked for this, but just for your reassurance, I ...

Not necessarily. It depended on the nature of -- I mean, if Peter Clarke or Andy Hayman or anybody else wished to send me an urgent note because they'd just discovered that there was a terrorist plot about to blow up this building, he wouldn't go through the TPU ...

No, not necessarily.

I said in my written statement -- although the fact that there was either a Cabinet Minister or a friend of a Cabinet Minister suspected was in the public domain.

That's what I said in my written statement.

Yes, that's why I think we were trying not to draw attention to that.

And it's not in the public domain at the request of the person involved.

The name wasn't in the public domain, and I didn't want to dwell on it, sir, because it still isn't in the public domain.

Yes.

Yeah.

No, it identified the friend of a Cabinet Minister.

Okay, thank you.

Sorry, I should know this, but would you be kind enough --

There was apparently -- and somebody outside of here has asked me recently: did I know about the victims' information scheme that was introduced? And the answer to that is no. So there was apparently -- that was another operational thing which I wasn't particularly informed.

Yes. And the one specific case that was mentioned to me, I think I was told -- and in fact I think it's repeated also in Richard Riley's note -- that the Met Commissioner would tell this person individually.

Yes, and obviously all means would be put into effect to try and make sure that the range of people who might be in such a target area would be protected, which is presumably why Commander Loughborough was writing to the TPU and they were thinking -- I think part of ...

Which is why I have always said "not the DPM". I was told it was suspected that, and if that proved to be the case, he personally would contact --

-- which is why I've saved it --

I was informed by the Met Commissioner to the best of my recollection and I'm trying to be careful about the name here --

Well, as it -- there's two different questions. One, should I have been informed about the general operation up until 8 August? That's one question. The second is when I was told what was happening, which was basically firstly through the media and then a conversation with the Met ...

That would -- you know, I mean I would have assumed that if there had been knowledge of, well, there's another four dozen MPs and there are any number of other Cabinet Ministers and 400 names or whatever, that that would have been a reaction.

Yes.

Yes.

No, but to me it was pretty obvious, because the Murdoch press and particularly the Sun was going to back Gordon for leadership, and they would like to have as much clarity as possible, no doubt, before that. And there were one or two meddlesome priests to be dealt with ...

Yes, because at 7 o'clock in the morning the Sun reporter phoned my special adviser to explain in Sun language that they were not happy that we had said we weren't doing any profiles, which was true, and had refused one to the Sun, which was true, and ...

Yes. The first thing, if you permit me to read what I have said in response in writing, is that the account in Chris Mullin's book is based on a much later conversation and written some years after the event itself, and therefore the style, language and inferences drawn ...

Yes.

Yes.

It was probably more than that. It was probably on and off for four months.

Yes.

I tell you when I took the decision to do something about it was years earlier, when I was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, I was given a file at the end of which was a form I was asked to sign to release a paedophile murderer who had ...

Yes.

That's obvious from what I said.

That slightly balances it up.

Secondly, this morning I Googled other papers around that time to see whether the Sun was untypical of what was being said at the time, because of course they selected the Sun out of the rest of them. I haven't had time to give ...

Right. Forgive me for being blunt in this, but part of my submission pointed out that newspapers do not just report the facts; they shape the facts, they select particular facts. They're very selective, so that they suit the prejudices.

If I had chosen an illustration to put before ...

Thank you kindly, sir.

Yes, sir. I hope that what I have said today puts to rest the sort of conspiracy theory regarding -- I know these conspiracy theories go around, sir. I saw one the other day was based on the fact that we had mysteriously brought forward the anticipated date of the counter ...

Just before you go on would you permit me, I hope that my answers have adequately responded to any questions either of you might have, and in the course of it, though that was not the intention, completely undermined the premise on which this was based about secret meetings and ...

No, I didn't. And I didn't even speak to the Cabinet colleague whose friend was a suspected victim, and there's a reason for that, because however inconvenient it may be, if you're in receipt of confidential information regarding either an operation or a prosecution, you cannot ...

There is a distinction in a democratic society and thank God it exists between politicians' accountability and oversight of agencies, whether it's intelligence or police, and the actual control and intervention in operations. That is a distinction that is absolutely essential, and therefore a minister is told about things ...

I beg your pardon, I beg your pardon, you're quite correct. Thank you for that. It was in the public domain that there were possible other victims, including an MP or a Cabinet Minister.

What was not in the public domain and was not in my awareness was that ...

No, since neither of them said any more, to all intents and purposes neither of them said any more than was already in the public domain, then my reaction wouldn't have been any different.

It's also worth pointing out that if I had been told a little more ...

Right.

Yes.

The first part of it is taken for granted. It was in the public domain that there were victims other than the Royal household, so I think he's right on that. I had no knowledge at the time that there were other journalists, but he's -- you know, Peter ...

Because the topics covered in that were precisely the topics covered in the media, no more and no less, and therefore Peter quite correctly -- I don't think Peter has in any way attempted to ill-inform the committee. I think it is perfectly possible that on the evening of 9 ...