I don't think we have, no.

Absolutely right. I can safely say we have never hacked anybody's phone, we have never paid a public official, police officer or anybody else any money for anything. We have never been asked for money for anything. I can safely say that every dealing with any police officer of ...

In terms of the difference between national and regional?

No, I think I'm quite happy to answer that.

The past few years have been extremely painful for regional newspapers in terms of declining revenues, in terms of the switch from the printed word to online. As far as the Express & Star goes, we are in the lucky ...

Yes.

We do speak regularly to police officers. When the riots were taking place, they were most professional at keeping us informed. So I think we're introducing, through this codification, an extra dimension that probably locally isn't necessary.

Yes, we have certain professional frustrations that we have to go through the press office. However, that doesn't mean to say that we're necessarily completely unhappy with the relationship.

But I don't think we have -- I don't think in the West Midlands there is a problem with us having information that is secret, that we shouldn't have. Equally, I don't think there's a problem with police officers giving out information that they shouldn't ...

Absolutely.

-- there be access to the police without necessarily the police officer having to feel she they have to record that contact.

No, no, no, absolutely not. Absolutely -- absolutely not. I would prefer --

It is very difficult, because it isn't simply -- you don't simply have a journalist rings up a particular police officer, a particular detective or a uniformed officer. It can come in all sorts of different ways, different levels, different importances, and if every single contact somehow is codified ...

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

I understand your point. I understand your point fully, but I worry that that coding, that codification, that ruling on contact, of every single contact, which can be at different levels --

I worry about that coding. I do worry about it.

But would recording those conversations necessarily make police officers any more open, any more accessible?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I do. But at the moment we don't have that system of recording and we don't particularly have a problem. We don't have a free-for-all. We have professional people on both sides.

But --

Correct.

No, I still feel that that is an element of concern, because certain officers could have a number of contacts, completely innocently, with a journalist, and I just -- I do feel that somehow, once that element of recording comes into it, compulsory recording comes into it, then there is a ...

That could happen on occasions. When there is a substantial investigation or a substantial court case, that may well happen --

I think it's introducing a codification, if you like, into what is a less formalised dialogue. Recording sounds fairly innocuous, making a note in your diary. However, once it starts to be recorded in that way, that each one has to be recorded, and at some point presumably would ...

Yes.

Yes.

No.

That's absolutely right.

Yes, "conservative" with a small "C".

Yes.

I think this is a significant difference between ourselves and the national press. Insofar as any regional local paper operates within its own communities, we depend on our contacts within that community. If we don't have their trust and their understanding and their respect, and they don't have ...

The other area where probably we get, if you like, off-the-record briefings would tend to be prior to court cases to give information ready for publication when a court case comes to an end, on the understanding that it isn't for publication at that time but is at the ...

Yes.

Missing people can be a difficult area. There can be a great deal of difference between a young person who goes missing walking home from school, who has never done anything like that before, and it is completely out of character, compared to a missing young person who has disappeared ...

Yes.

I think it's important that our readers understand and see that justice is being done, I suppose it is, as its most basic. I think it's good for them to understand that people are being brought to justice and that -- I think that we provide the balance. Yes ...

Yes, it is. It is, yes. After their conviction, we would use them, obviously, with their faces.

No, normally those are blanked out. Those would be blanked out.

Our staff are. Yes, they are. Not me personally, but our staff certainly are. We've been a number of occasions when we've been invited on drug raids, cannabis houses, particularly in the aftermath of the riots last summer. On a couple of occasions, we were invited along to ...

It wouldn't be much more. It wouldn't be much more.

That's it.

Yes.

No, that's right.

That's right.

We probably get -- occasionally we get letters. Not that often, I have to say. It doesn't happen that often. And very often, they are stories that are sort of ill-informed, if you like, are not really there when they're looked into.

Yes, I wouldn't -- yes, absolutely.

I think part of having that relationship and trust means that that's accepted, if you like, that that is -- that no one is looking for preferential treatment, particularly.

A great concern to our readers, for example, are the savings that are having to be made in the police, so the reductions in the number of police stations, the reductions in numbers of officers. That would be -- those would be important stories for us. So, if you like, there ...