Thank you, sir.

No, I'm perfectly content with that. Thank you, Mr Jay.

Thank you.

That's as I understand it as well, sir, but it is voluntary, still. People have to decide to abide by the code. As you rightly say, the incentive to abide by the code perhaps is the carrot in terms of a defamation action, and secondly, given that all these ...

Succinctly and very well put, sir, and yes, I am. And above all, this is at its very heart when it was established, it was with the aim and intent of resolving complaints quickly, fairly and free of charge, which covers my accessibility point.

Now, I dare say, and you ...

Yes.

Sir, in that case, I'll be very brief, because you're obviously, as you say, on the case already as far as this is concerned.

It's fairly recently established. It does have certain aspects which strike me as very useful. The ombudsman aspect gives that degree of independence ...

And obviously the differences would tend to be it stresses areas where the Scottish ministers have particular competence, like the one on jobs and investment that I read out to you. But following the Ministerial Code is my fourth point.

And fifth, and I'm not saying this is a ...

I cited it earlier on, sir. If we haven't made it an exhibit, then I shall make sure it is done.

Thank you, sir.

First, and I would give primacy to this, is to uphold the law. I think it's -- my view is it's extraordinary of the various aspects of this that I've spoken about that an assumed illegality can have been taking place on a huge scale ...

I do this because, sir, you've asked and I thought, if you were going to ask, I may as well be prepared.

Okay. I think I managed to produce five, but let's take the -- I have tried to put them as a hierarchy but this is meant to be helpful and --

Yes, but I wasn't discontented at all with that aspect of the terms of reference. This was pursuing whether -- I was asking for clarification on an aspect. To me, that aspect was covered appropriately in the terms of reference that had been proposed to me. And it should be ...

Yes, and that would be a legitimate aspect. I think the point I was pretty well convinced from the terms of reference that the Inquiry was going to look into that. I was merely looking for reassurance that this was not an inquiry limited into allegations of hacking, important and ...

I don't think -- I suspect there's a Civil Service drafting that perhaps could have been clearer, perhaps I should have made it clearer. I was really thinking of illegal practices. I think it's possible to consider -- clearly this Inquiry is considering practices which are improper but not ...

-- you were established in your present position.

Yes, I do, sir, but this, of course, was before --

Well, I am concerned with it because I think there's a connecting thread which is that what seemed to me to be substantive evidence of illegality or illegal practices which was contained in the Information Commissioner -- the English and Welsh Information Commissioner's report, Richard Thomas, I think, of ...

Mm.

Yes, sure.

Well, I don't know, sir. Are you definite on that? Well, I thought perhaps for the Scottish dimension to your inquiry, perhaps an adjunct would be helpful.

No. Any date in the autumn of 2014 is a possible date, Mr Jay. But once we find out what the date is, once that's announced, then I'll come back and we'll be able to judge whether the possibility was a probability or a definite, shall we?

A possible date can't be leaked. I mean, I've confirmed that is a possible date, but there are other dates. It's not the date, it's not the preferred date, it's not the definite date, and that will be announced in due course. You can't ...

Well, can I say that that date is not the date of the referendum. That's not the preferred date. It's a possible date, certainly. And if I could explain why it would be my interpretation -- your straight answer, do I know, the answer's no, but my interpretation ...

No.

I don't just not accept there's no implied deal, there wasn't a deal here. In terms of -- no, I hope and believe that these emails suggest that I can deal with people in a proper businesslike and cordial manner and that's what I seek to do ...

No. Well, that's certainly not the case because I would regard the two meetings I had with him in 2007 and 2008 as convivial meetings.

As I say again, in relation to other politicians who have been before you, my number of meetings with Mr Murdoch are very few ...

I think within the crystallisation perhaps something is lost.

Is that Mr Murdoch or is that mine? I'm familiar with the tweet messages. As I said, I didn't put too much reliance on -- I didn't think I said Mr Murdoch's tweet messages, I would say tweets in general are not something necessary to put too ...

I think yes, I think -- let's put it this way. If I was canvassing, I think he would still be in the don't know category rather than the certain to vote category, but certainly I think that's a fair description. He's interested in the idea, I ...

It's certainly known -- and I've advanced this to a range of businesses and business organisations that the SNP has a longstanding policy of reducing corporation tax in an independent Scotland as a means of attracting additional investment. I think it's a key policy which a smaller economy ...

Yeah, that's correct. This was actually a statement which was issued within an hour or so of the meeting. I understand that's an unusual practice in meetings with Mr Murdoch, but I think that's a good practice, so I think it's very helpful to get -- I ...

I can't remember. It was quite brief. And it was in London. He wanted to know a great deal about what our potential plans were in terms of when the debate and the issue would be tested. Obviously it's known that it will be tested and decided in ...

Well, the conversations, limited though they were, that we'd had, had certainly been cordial conversations and the subject matter tended to indicate that.

I think it seems to me -- I may be reading too much into this, of course, because, as I say, although that -- in his evidence he says he doesn't know me well and that's factually correct because of the limited number of times I've met him, but ...

We'd discussed it at the meetings certainly in 2007 and again I think in 2008, but it should be said that perhaps these discussions didn't have the same immediacy as discussions now would have.

I don't think it was, actually. This was very much about the impact of the -- because this was immediately after the election in Scotland. This was very much about Scottish independence. And I think it is a -- don't accuse me of subtlety here, but it wasn't just ...

Well, yes, I agree. I think it's a slight understatement.

Correct.

I didn't -- well, the fact, the existence of content of legal advice I'm not meant to tell people, I think is the position, but I had some understanding because I knew the -- over the years, I've known the position of the MMC and the Competition Commission and ...

But I did think at some point in this process it was perfectly valid to argue that jobs and investment should be some sort of criteria. Kind of important to the 6,000 plus people in Scotland whose livelihoods depended on it.

No, I have to say I was quite surprised by the turn of events that took place the next day. I wasn't and I know there have been occasions in the past where -- well, the Lloyds bid for HBOS Bank of Scotland, for example, where things were at the ...

No, because there was no quid pro quo. We know that for two reasons. One, that the support for the argument that the representation to the Secretary of State was never actually made, so there was no quid therefore there was no pro, but the two things weren't connected ...

I thought it came from you, but --

No, it's not, because remember, this is an internal email from Fred Michel to James Murdoch. At that time presumably they had no knowledge or expectation that these emails would ever be the subject of investigation at this Inquiry or elsewhere. They wouldn't expect that to have happened ...

But then, of course I wouldn't have said that if I knew it was going to be overtaken by events.

I would repeat the point that I was prepared to represent to the Secretary of State I thought jobs and investment should be a criteria. I didn't know what the Secretary of State was going to do in the next day. In fact, I was rather surprised by it ...

All I wanted was a lack of influence. I wanted -- the editorial team were well up for the cup.

I very much agree, sir. I'm merely stating that there have been times in the recent past in Scotland where the Sun has been vehemently anti-SNP as in 2007 and the Sunday Times gave us editorial support, and there are times like now where the Sun is pro-SNP although ...

I can only report, sir, on what he's said to me. But it is the case that whether there was -- I've seen suggested elsewhere that whatever is said in various agreements, that if the editor of the Times or the Sunday Times knew the wishes of the proprietor ...