Thank you, sir.

I'm sure they will.

Well, I think people who are in -- from my side on politics -- I mean, those people who are engaged in the political side -- should try and help do that. I think if it's done in the right way, I think it can improve the quality of political debate and ...

Yeah, look, I think there is a chance to get this in a better place, actually, and I -- there would be many parts of the media that would disagree with this, but I think there are a lot of people in journalism and in the media who, if the framework ...

Yeah, that sounds like Jeremy.

(Nods head)

(Nods head)

Well, thank you, sir. I mean, I will do that.

I mean, look, I think this is a very difficult task, and I think some of these questions are difficult -- not just for our country, by the way, but as I say, I think this is a debate that increasingly ...

Yes.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm-hm.

Cost money. Yes, they do.

Yes. Some of those are just solicitors' letters, but yes, the point -- I totally agree.

No, absolutely, and I think in a sense, the question really is -- the standards that should apply are actually pretty clear. The question is: are they going to be applied or do we simply say, "Well, this is too difficult"?

All I'm saying about that one is -- you know ...

Yes, I think that's right. I think where I would say this one is, in one sense, qualitatively different, is that whereas -- whether X happened or it didn't happen is what I can see is a relatively simple decision to make. You weigh up the evidence, decide whether ...

Yes, that's right. So I think you distinguish a number of categories here. There's behaviour that's criminal, that, for some reason, hasn't been investigated. That certainly.

You have things that are very specific, to do with allegations that are made, intrusions of privacy or whatever, where ...

(Nods head)

Yes, I think because it is the press, you have to take immense care on the rules, right, and on what you're saying are the canons of behaviour that are acceptable or unacceptable.

So for example -- a very good example of this is that I don't think you ...

Yeah.

I think it's difficult, if you think it's really important, to say that someone's able to exclude themselves from it. I don't think in other walks of life you would have that.

I'm certainly not ruling it out. I think that's one issue. I think the most important thing, actually -- because I think there are all sorts of different ways you do this in the relationship between statutory or not, but the important thing is it is independent of government ...

I'm never sure about this, really. I think one of the reasons why the papers that actually do try and present this thing -- I mean, look, I suppose it's the more upmarket papers that do that, try and present it in a very straight way, but no, I ...

I don't -- I mean, no doubt -- I don't want to go right outside my expertise but I think certainly in those main titles I've described, I would say -- you know, you have quite a strong set of standards operating there. You have things like fact checkers who ...

Disaggregated market in America. There are lots of different sort of -- the feel in politics in California is very different from that in Texas, for example. You have a far more diverse set of media outlets.

I don't think you would want to change them, but do you really -- I don't think this is as difficult as people are making out. The fact is that you can have a style of news and comment and the editorial line that creates a personality for the ...

Right. Well, if it's there, presumably someone, when they put it there, thought it might be possible to distinguish between those things, but -- I mean, I can't say with a certain section of the media anyone would recognise that distinction as being made.

Well, it's very difficult. That's a very good question. It's very difficult. That's why, in this area, I think you have to be very careful of trying to do this by regulation as opposed to a shift in culture.

Although I do notice, I think it ...

Look, it's certainly a possible analysis, and I'm not saying we don't bear any responsibility for this situation -- don't misunderstand me -- as a political class, but I think if I'm frank about it, the primary responsibility is not having confronted it and dealt with it ...

It's got to the point where I almost hesitate to dispute it with you, because I know these people just say, "Oh, how dare he dispute the fact that actually they were out using black arts and briefing against this person and that person?" The fact is, you know ...

What I used to say to Jonathan was: "Look, it's not correct about us. You don't actually know it's correct about them." So, you know, I had my issues with some of those people, but towards the end of my time in government, in the morning meetings ...

No, that's my point, really, that in the end they receive this as sort of second-hand -- look, I have no doubt that we used to complain strongly if we thought stories were wrong. You know, I think that's perfectly legitimate. But I always felt -- and I'm probably ...

If you take someone like Andrew Marr, who is a very good journalist, I would be astonished if he felt that he'd been bullied or intimidated. If he did feel that, then I'm sorry about it, and I certainly wouldn't have known about it. And if I ...

Yeah, but you see, I draw a very clear distinction between what I would say is a very tough professional media operation and ruthless in the handling of the press in the sense of -- when I read this stuff about how people felt bullied and harassed and intimidated and so ...

I think more general gut reaction, I suppose, which is not to say, by the way -- just so that I put this absolutely on the record, since I had protection people who worked with me for a very long time and I don't believe anyone has ever leaked any ...

Yeah, there are the two points. Now, I look back and think, actually, I was at fault because I should just have pushed back harder, but it's easy to kind of say that now. At the time it's very difficult.

Yeah.

(Nods head)

Yes -- that then cleared him, I think the disparity illustrates the problem. There's somebody who -- I mean, I felt at the time -- as I said, towards the end I was getting very hardened to this, but I felt at the time we just can't ship any more water ...

I don't want to be landing a fresh person in a story, as it were, but I mean, I give an example in my autobiography of the second Peter Mandelson resignation, where -- I mean, in my last period in government, I think I would have handled that differently. We ...

Yeah, that's absolutely right. And so -- look, I always say to people about this invasion of privacy, by the way, that -- I think what many people who are in public life would say is that they actually accept that your privacy is going to be intruded upon, if you ...

Yes. I mean, look, I think a certain amount of comment is perfectly legitimate. There were things that happened that it's perfectly legitimate for people to comment on, but I thought that some the papers, particularly the Mail group, took it too far and it turned into a sort ...

There's absolutely no truth in it. I know this appeared and it was a Mail on Sunday story. As we said at the time, it was completely wrong, and as I've just been indicating to you, in my conversations about Tom Watson, you know, this is not somebody ...

Yeah, the -- well. No, I'm sure.

No, it has nothing to do with Rebekah Brooks at all. Look, the fact is -- this is to go over history now, but when that coup began and then I think there was some story about him having visited Gordon Brown, there were those of my people who felt very ...

It was going to happen anyway. Look, you know, he's perfectly entitled to his point of view, but you can't really remain a minister in the government if you call for the Prime Minister to go, at least not in normal circumstances.

No, I mean, look, I didn't use text or email at the time, something, if I may say, for which I'm profoundly grateful now, but I don't recall anything of that nature, whether they were sending emails to -- I don't know. I really -- I have no ...

(Nods head)

The thing is, the world in which we live today, especially -- this is where social media has not had the impact some of us thought it would have when it first came along. So what I thought at the beginning of this -- because this obviously was developing during my time ...

So I remember, from my days at the bar. But I think, you know, this is the -- this is one aspect of it, and I think and hope -- actually, subsequent to that particular incident, things were a little calmer, but there was no need to do that, and I think ...