I'll accept that, certainly.

Yes. That other person is actually a pseudonym used by -- is that what you're going to point out?

Yes, who was an assistant commissioner, Mike Todd.

I'm afraid I can't comment on that. All I can tell you were the facts.

All I'm saying is I informed members of the community because I thought that it was my duty to do so, and I was told by my immediate boss that the Commissioner was unhappy with that.

I don't recall that.

But that's something that perhaps you don't understand.

I told you -- I'm afraid I can't explain any further than I have done about how the hierarchy in the Metropolitan Police works.

Yes. Yes, it did come up. Alan Brown was the assistant commissioner in overall charge of the operation. He started to talk about the fact that this person had been shot, and Andy Hayman interrupted him and said, "Yes, but we don't know -- we haven't established definitely what ...

In addition, the two people who initially told me that we had shot an innocent Brazilian were the Commissioner's staff officer and his chief of staff --

No, if I did, I would be pointing out a fact that Andy Hayman, a more senior officer, had pointed out to me, and therefore I felt that it was his responsibility and not mine to tell the Commissioner.

Yes, and it's very difficult for anybody who has not been a police officer, as I was for 30 years, to understand the hierarchical nature of the police service and how it would be a career-limiting thing to go against a more senior officer who was present in the ...

I've just told you why.

No, because the person who confirmed the identity of Jean Charles de Menezes in a meeting that I attended that afternoon, before the 5 o'clock meeting, was Andy Hayman. He was of higher rank than me. He was the head of counter-terrorism. He did not choose to raise that ...

Yes.

Yes, so it was about 3 o'clock in the afternoon.

About five hours after the shooting.

Yes.

Sure.

Was there?

No.

If that newspaper was under investigation, then it was entirely inappropriate.

As I say, from now onwards, I would say that it was inappropriate, but that wasn't the case then.

In the light of what's happened, with the benefit of hindsight, maybe not, but it's certainly not appropriate for that to take place when that editor's newspaper is currently under investigation by the police.

Could you repeat the question?

I think it raises --

I guess having coffee over -- in a formal meeting, it doesn't really matter who pays for it, but when it comes to wining and dining, then I think that puts people under obligations.

In the light of the discussion that we've had today, and bearing in mind the example that is -- well, the conduct that is expected of patrol officers, for example, I would hope that the same applies throughout all levels of the organisation.

Yes, and his wife as well.

Three weeks' residential at a health farm at the expense of somebody else who has a connection with a company that's under investigation.

Again, depends on the circumstances, but generally speaking, yes.

Absolutely.

To try and improve things in the Metropolitan Police, for example, around the way that drugs were dealt with, in terms of improving the police race relations, that sort of things.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

No, of course not, no.

They were mainly approaches to me by them rather than the other way around.

I didn't have relationships with them. I had contact with them.

Again, it depends on the circumstances in which he engaged with them, but clearly it's important for the Commissioner to try to ensure that the Met is seen in the best possible light.

I think I've just said that I think that the relationship between newspaper editors and very senior officers should be limited to formal meetings that are minuted.

-- as I have indicated, he also was apparently not very happy were anything critical to be said or published, and I know that that's his job, but it depends how close that relationship is and whatever the press are therefore fairly reporting on police activity or not.

John Stevens was given the specific job of improving morale in the Met police and therefore he developed good relationships with the media in order to try and ensure that the best possible image of the Metropolitan Police was put forward, but --

I think it depends how far that goes and in what circumstances it's done.

I mean that the Commissioners tried to develop good relationships with editors.

Yes.

It's reassuring, sir, yes.

I think it should be led by a senior officer from another force who has had no previous service with the Metropolitan Police.

I wasn't aware of that.

I have concerns about the independence of the Independent Police Complaints Commission.