Yes, I understand that, and I've taken a rather less restrictive view than one might have done in ordinary litigation.

To take the example with Ms Jellema, she talks about the PCC being a slap on the wrist; the editor would say something very, very different.

Yes. It's not any different for us. I mean, obviously if there were to be a conflict between the managers of the paper and a journalist, something different might arise.

That's very kind. Thank you.

She did say that. As far as I know, we never saw it.

We didn't have the full transcripts which are annexed to the statement. The statement itself is dated by Mr Atkins when he signed it, 28 November, so it wouldn't have been possible to serve it on us before then.

Yes, but I -- there wasn't. Herbert Smith tell me it wasn't there until 28 November.

You'll see that's --

Could I just add that we only got his witness statement last week on 28 November.

Well, you've made that very clear. So far as any safeguard is concerned, that is some consolation if one of the counsel on the Inquiry team looks at it, and in the light of what I've said about relevance to any possible defences --

Can I just direct your attention out of the question of relevance? It would be very different if one of the Inquiry team had looked at the other half of the covered film footage and -- Mr Jay or Ms Patry Hoskins were to say there is nothing relevant there to ...

October 2009.

Well, I'm not suggesting that it would be necessary, still less desirable, an exercise of discretion in every single case, but what I am suggesting is that it wouldn't be right and would offend basic fairness if you were to take the position that it would never be ...

That is the point. What have we seen?

Can I just see what I have to say about discovery? The problem is that these conversations took place now over two and a half years ago, back in March of 2009, so the difficulty that we have -- and Ms Jellema is no longer in our employ, Mr Owens is ...

Well, I understand that the Inquiry's position is that there will be no specific findings in this section of the Inquiry, but on the other hand, an afternoon has been devoted to considering all of Mr Atkins' many complaints against the press in relation to my clients, what he ...

We suggest, with respect, that it's fairness to the paper and to its journalists, who have been criticised in trenchant terms by Mr Atkins for breaching not merely the PCC code but also the Data Protection Act, that one looks to see from the material in the tapes and ...

With respect, I'm not sure that that has anything to do with it.

First of all, let me indicate the material that we are interested in.

Can I develop the submission?

In order to see in what circumstances a story might have been published and, if published, could have been justified.

Because it's necessary to see the whole of the conversations in context.

I indicated to Ms Patry Hoskins that I would be asking you to order that Mr Atkins provides the entirety of the tapes and the covered film footage.

You've ruled, and all I wanted to be sure was that you knew how widely available his recent image was.

I'm sorry, if I could just add: if the issue is to do with his appearance, then, in my submission, that needs to be borne in mind, that anyone can find photographs and a video of his appearance on the Internet. Indeed, it's just been done by the ...

Of course, I don't know what those good reasons are and I am prepared to accept they were persuasive. Could I just enquire whether your Lordship, when exercising the discretion, took into account the fact that Mr Atkins' image is easily obtainable on the Internet by both a Google ...