Thank you very much, sir.

Thank you.

I think that's absolutely right, sir.

I'm very conscious that I am at the nexus of your three strands, as you put it. I think my main concern would be to say that while it is possible to put in place rules and standard operating procedures and regulations around some of these situations, in the ...

There was only one further thing, sir, if I may, which is that the theme of my evidence and perhaps questioning today might give rise to the impression that I don't think that the press or the media have an important role to play in policing, and I believe ...

Yes. I think as Sir Paul Stephenson has said, this is an investigation that has to happen. It is a question merely of balancing resources across the various crime types that the Met have to deal with. The forecast I have for staffing on the various investigations is that it ...

I think in the generality of elected police and crime commissioners, yes, that might be an issue. But obviously the critical difference in the new governance arrangements over the existing is that the scrutiny function of the MPA or indeed any Police Authority has now been transferred externally, so that ...

Mm.

Yes.

I have, and did during the progress of the bill, for a couple of reasons, practical and principled. The principle problem was that I was persuaded of the case that in conduct matters if the Commissioner was seen as effectively judge, jury and executioner, that wasn't necessarily good for ...

Well, I think there have been a number of witnesses, not least, I think, Sir Hugh Orde yesterday, who said that he'd been surprised at the level of hospitality that had been offered.

Yes, I think so.

If they had seen it?

No, I don't think so, if the explanation is given that that is the policy of the organisation. And I think it's also perfectly possible to offer an alternative, which is to say, "I would like to engage with you, I would like to talk about the context ...

No, I don't think I do. I think it's fairly plain for people whose job it is to exercise their professional judgment every single day. That's what police officers have to do. They are charged to exercise that judgment in frankly some very critical situations, so handling ...

I don't think I did, no.

Yes, I don't think I'm revealing too much confidence in that it became apparent to me that Sir Paul Stephenson was completely shocked when it was revealed that Wallis was involved in Champneys. It seemed to take him totally by surprise, and therefore the coincidence of those two ...

Yes.

Yes. I mean, I felt -- I had a huge amount of admiration for Sir Paul and still do, and thought he was a man of great integrity and had some quite significant achievements during a long and distinguished career, and I had been reassured by him and Mr Godwin that ...

I believe that's the case, yes.

Yes. He said that he felt that was probably the best course, but that he would let me know. He hadn't totally made up his mind. He would let me know later.

There were -- it was the Commissioner's normal practice to meet me and the chief executive, Catherine Crawford, together, but when he wished to discuss very personal matters, his health, family issues, whatever, then he would normally ask Catherine Crawford to leave and I recall that he did at that ...

Yes.

Yes. I think the committee's decision was whether to record the complaint and pass it on to the IPCC.

Do I? I'm sorry.

Was it? I'm sorry, apologies.

Well, at that stage, prior to the kind of revelations that were later -- I mean I obviously was concerned about the reputational damage. I don't think at any stage I indicated that I thought they shouldn't be investigating. It was just a matter of speed and resources.

I ...

Yes, I did express concern, although the impression that this was some sort of concerted effort is a bit, I think, playing it a bit strongly.

In contextual terms, at the beginning of 2009 the Met convicted two unpleasant serial rapists, Reid and Worboys, and the investigations of those rapists ...

I think that's exactly right. There were dots which appeared random, which subsequently may or may not be connected.

Yes. And my judgment was that while it wasn't necessarily the way I would have operated, Sir Paul Stephenson was a man of great integrity, the most senior police officer in the land. If I'd for one moment lost any trust in him, then we had a fairly ...

If I'd felt it was unsatisfactory, I think I would in the first instance have been -- addressed it more assertively, perhaps, with the Commissioner. If that was unsatisfactory, I would have discussed it with the Mayor, and we would then have taken a decision about what to do about ...

It does if one is aware of them, yes, sir.

That's correct, but the other thing to bear in mind is of course at this stage I think I'm right in saying we only saw the hospitality of the Commissioner and Deputy Commissioner. It was for them to ensure that the officers junior to them were adhering to ...

I can't recall the chronology, I'm afraid, of when I would have raised with Sir Paul and indeed others the modus operandi. I think it would be -- it would -- my concern would be that it was fine to meet in the office over a cup of coffee at ...

Well, it was certainly raised, publicly, as I say, and as we've exhibited in the minutes. The Commissioner was questioned about the appropriateness of it and he defended it.

Well, I think the views across the Authority varied in terms of its appropriateness. I accepted Sir Paul's premise that he needed to engage across the media to put the context of policing. As I think I say in my evidence, I was unsure about the modus operandi, whether ...

Sorry. Sorry, that's the general response from the MPS. When Sir Paul Stephenson was questioned about this in public and in private, he put up a robust defence that I think you heard in his evidence when he appeared here.

Sorry, which paragraph?

Mm.

At the MPA meeting, I think Mr Godwin referred to the MPS reopening the investigation. I'm not sure he defined the individual. And I can't recall, but at our pre-meeting to prepare for the Police Authority, I think he may have referred to him reopening the investigation, but ...

Yes, sir. Yes, sir, I think that's ...

Yes. I think that's a relatively common practice. Not least with prolific criminals. You know, you will prosecute a burglar for one or two burglaries, but there will be sometimes dozens taken into account.

To be honest, I'm not sure whether he's referring to other information that might indicate that someone on that list had or whether the list itself indicates. I think my guess is that that would be a point at issue. It's obviously the case that if Mr ...

Yes.

From memory, at that stage, I think -- I'm trying to recall now. This is 30 September 2010. I can't remember -- quite recall, but at some stage I recall John Yates saying there were a list of people, and -- but that list didn't necessarily indicate that they had ...

Yes.

Mm-hm.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes. I think the police generally had a -- I think they might have been required to inform us where overseas travel was involved.