No, I think the Daily Mail -- and recently I know that Mr Wright was a guest of Mr Lawrence and I know how much Mr Lawrence respects the support that Mr Wright gave him. I also know that I was at a criminal justice lecture, which was sponsored by the ...

No, only that I do think it's essential that the police enjoy the confidence of the public, because we are not as effective as we should be without it, and I do believe that maybe lessons could be learned which would benefit other investigations and other families that have ...

Regrettably, sir, I don't know who leaked, so I could not say one way or the other.

I'm very grateful, sir.

My understanding is that an investigation did take place and that in fact that information has been passed across to the Independent Police Complaints Commission and indeed also to Operation Elveden, so I would respectfully ask that I don't give that name for fear of undermining what could be ...

That is correct.

That is correct, and also the fact that potentially that contact could have been a witness in the trial.

It was January actually that I was contacted and that was when he asked me to keep the name of a very senior member of the Metropolitan Police Service, that -- well, I wasn't to share any information about that individual at all with the other individual.

My apologies, sir.

The trial started on 14 November 2010 and was concluded on 5 January 2012.

That's correct.

No. That was significant because it was only two days after the Director of Public Prosecutions had given us permission to move forward, so 48 hours later it was the Press Bureau that contacted me on a Sunday and told me that there would be this article appearing in the ...

That's correct, sir.

That's correct, sir.

That was included within my decision log that I had considered poetic licence, I'd considered a genuine mistake, but as the police officer in charge of a murder investigation, you also have to consider that it could be an act designed to undermine the path of justice.

Because there was a considerable amount of information being put in which was correct, but there was an awful lot of information that wasn't, and that information would have made it difficult for witnesses, as I've already spoken about, to have the confidence to come forward. That would ...

That is correct. We went straight into leak mode and believed it was a leak, but upon investigation, it was an error by the press office -- a genuine, an innocent error. Whilst briefing the Sunday Times of what LGC Forensics could offer as a company, they drifted into talking about ...

I've enjoyed total support from Mr and Mrs Lawrence, but along the way there has been moments where I've really felt for them, because they felt that it was just same old, same old, that in fact the police were deliberately releasing information, therefore slowing down their investigation ...

That was certainly what Mr Wright said.

That's what he confirmed, yes, sir.

That is correct, and once again, I mean I would pay tribute to Mr Wright, because he didn't publish the second story. I know that he didn't publish the second story, I know that. So he was spoken to and certainly on the correspondence that I've read ...

That's correct, sir.

No. No, sir. No, sir. Because, as I've already explained, it's always been the view of our investigation that they never missed it. They didn't find it, that's accepted, but they never missed it. They didn't really have the technology, and I suppose, with everything ...

That sources insisted forensic experts rather than police appeared, is that what you're talking about?

Yes, sir.

What paragraph?

Yes, because, your Honour, without confidence -- and I'm not being flippant -- the police are probably about as much use as a chocolate teapot, because we need people to feel confident to come to us, we need people to be able to tell us their story, and if it's ...

So I did feel -- and that caused us a slight problem, because in young Stephen's case, there are quite a few people who feel quite badly damaged by it and we were trying to encourage people to have the belief and confidence in us to come forward and tell ...

I understand that, sir, but I think it's quite an important point because they didn't find it, I would agree with you 100 per cent they never found it. What I wouldn't agree with you is that they missed it because they didn't have the technology ...

I never believed it was missed, and I think that's quite unkind to the scientists --

Sir, I don't believe it was missed.

No, we were actually delighted, sir. We felt that we were making progress, so that's not a term I would use. In fact, I felt nothing but optimism, and I think the people within the inclusion zone felt the same optimism.

The information within the Mail certainly was the information we gave at that meeting. So with the exception of the terminology used, we did discuss the scientific progress of the case and therefore some of the earlier scientific findings which had involved the very tapings that eventually formed a major ...

It outlines what was discussed in the newspaper, certainly.

No, my understanding that's the Mail Online, so the Daily Mail article was slightly -- it appears on the Mail Online to have one line as opposed to like a narrative story. So that is the Mail Online, but I think there would be others far better than myself to ...

Well, it would have been known. Obviously, you do lose a degree of control once you invite other people into a meeting, but the people that were coming are, I think, well-known, I think people would recognise them. So when they came in to New Scotland Yard, the people who ...

It was actually before I got home. I received a phone call whilst I was on the train that there was an article that was going to be printed the following day which followed the meeting that we'd just had, or appeared to follow the meeting we'd just ...

We had at that stage, I think -- to progress this case, we always needed new and compelling evidence, and it might -- well, we did have new evidence that we wanted to share with Mrs Lawrence just to keep them abreast, and also her legal team, to show the advancement that ...

That was correct, sir, yes.

That is correct.

There was no permission for disclosure on the investigation we were doing at all.

It identified that there was a forensic review going on, it identified the fact that we had a team working on Stephen's case, which up until then we'd managed to keep fairly quiet. It was never -- I think they talked about a secret location. It was never that ...

And we would tell them what they needed to know to allow them to make the investigations we were asking, so they would know that we were taking saliva samples off the witnesses, because that was one of the tests they performed, but other non-related scientific matters we wouldn't ...

No. To manage the press interest we put all of the press departments together, so the Crown Prosecution Service and LGC Forensics, but there was no need for the press officers to know the intricate detail of the forensic advance that was being made.

That would be correct, sir.

It would have been within my team, we formed a forensic team to deal with the continuity and the integrity of the exhibits, because we knew that would be important to the court, so they would have been aware of it. It would have been myself, it would have been ...

It was her responsibility, sir. The actual investigation, if in fact I needed extra resources, the investigation, when significant moments occurred, would be a matter of discussion I would have had with Cressida Dick. She also had an input with the wider political matters around Stephen, and it was really ...

Absolutely not, sir. I'm under no illusion, my team's under no illusion, if it wasn't for the dedication, hard work and support of AC Dick we wouldn't have got across the finish line, so I have no doubt that ma'am would not have done anything ...

That's correct, sir.

No, in the initial we actually tried to stay completely under the radar. I couldn't say it was a secret operation because it wasn't, but we didn't wish publicity, we didn't feel that would be in any way helpful to us.