Thank you, sir.

No, I don't think that was something that we considered or that my attention was directed to, because as of our involvement as counsel, and I was the person responsible for giving the advice, the position was that we were going to present the case in such a way ...

Well, it's not -- it's not that clear. I mean, I can picture where it took place, I can picture some of the people, but I'm afraid trying to reconstruct it is extremely difficult, and I wonder in answer to your question -- I mean, I don't know ...

No.

Yes, I -- that's a possibility.

No, I was just going to say I have no clear recollection of any discussion in relation to what had been seized.

No, I'm afraid I can't, I can't recall that.

I think that must be right. Were they arrested on 8 August?

I can both see and hear you.

Thank you very much.

No, I wasn't aware of that.

Thank you. My view is that my impression throughout this case, which was not an easy case, given all the sensitivities as well as the technical aspects and the difficult issues of law, was that everyone involved, both at the Crown Prosecution Service and in the police, were conscientiously attempting ...

Mr Jay, may I say that -- sorry. May I say --

Yes.

No. There was no such suggestion. And also, may I just add that it's not just the conspiracy in counts 16 to 20, because of course the conspiracy was an alternative to substantive charges that went up to count 15, and I don't think in relation to those ...

Yes.

Well, I think this may be following on from the note that I had done, because again I think this was -- when we -- when both Mr Mably and I were being asked, I think if a wrong turn had been taken earlier, probably as a result of what I'd ...

Well, I suppose that's a matter for them as to whether they understood it, but certainly that was the advice that was being given.

The point was never taken against us to argue it.

Well, I suppose the first thing I would say is I'm not sure whether I'm in the right position to say what view the officers took or what approach they adopted, but certainly the approach we adopted as counsel in the case was that the broad view was ...

I know we had some basis for saying in some of the charges that you could distinguish that point, but I'm not sure if that was the case in all cases, but yes, I know that in some instances it was possible to make that distinction.

Well, yes, I do accept that, but I think the point that is being made in this paragraph is: when you're collating the data, you wouldn't necessarily know whether a voicemail message had been listened to either before or after it had been accessed by the intended recipient ...

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

That's correct.

No, I was just going to say that I did find it extremely helpful, and looking at it, I took a view, I had no reason not to, and I think now if someone were to say, two years later or however long later, that this is the position, then ...

I have --

Yes.

Yes.

-- of the law. And the moral of the story is: don't do advices overnight if you don't have the papers.

Yes. First of all, I think the position in relation to this was that I was asked to do this at a time when I didn't have access to any of the papers in the case, but I was provided with a document prepared by Detective Chief Superintendent Williams ...

I have a recollection getting a call some time late in the course of a day when I was -- I think I was already obliged to or I was in the process of preparing something else, and I was asked to do something at pretty short notice.

My understanding is that this was something that we were asked to prepare at the request of the Crown Prosecution Service at a time when the Crown Prosecution Service were looking again at the prosecution decision-making and strategy, and I think that a good deal of effort was being put ...

That refers to what we saw at all material times.

Yes. Yes.

That's exactly right, sir, yes. And that was exactly the process that he was undertaking at this particular time.

No. So far as I can recall, he did not.

All I can say is that the question that I asked at the conference on 21 August 2006 was prompted by a feeling that there was possibly something more to this, but that's a feeling you very often get in criminal cases.

Well, all I -- there were only a number of things I could go on. I could go on the documentation available to me and what I was told, and also, of course, I could go on what the defence were contending in their confiscation statement. And the point that was ...

Now, I guess we could have argued this and spent several days in the Crown Court and possibly gone to the Supreme Court to have the Supreme Court tell us who was right or who was wrong, but in the end I, in response to the defence statement, took the ...

Well, I think the position in relation to the Proceeds of Crime Act statement is clearly the police were contending for a higher benefit figure, and that's something for which they were contending, but the difficulty with that approach it seemed to me as a matter of law is ...

I think that was my decision.

I think -- yes, if you boil it down to that. I think at the time of the conference, looking at Mr Williams' notes, I don't think we had all the information at that point, because there's a reference to "work out a benefit figure later", and I note ...

Yes.

I can't -- I can't recall the precise details in relation to that, but doing the best I can, I've tried to think about this, and doing the best I can, I think that would have been a matter for the police, and I may say, I think ...

It was just in isolation. And also, I think -- it was in isolation, and I think it was also difficult because things were -- I think we were trying to look at things very quickly for understandable and perfectly reasonable reasons, but I think I was just asked to look at ...

Yes, and I wonder whether that sheds light on this, because I think that when I was asked to look at this much later, I think Simon Clements was involved in that stage of the inquiry, and I wonder whether this is actually a reference -- I wonder whether this is ...

I think so.

I assume so.