Thank you very much. I will do my best on that.

Absolutely.

I think probably that's it. Apart from, once again, just saying that it's something that needs to be treasured and valued because I've seen the other side and now, at the moment, every day I speak to my father, who is constantly under attack because of the ...

Yes.

There's certain stories that circulate that I haven't got any proof for, but I think with time this evidence will come out and it probably will come out during the time of this Inquiry.

I think, for the time being at least, making sure that those newspapers can carry on and carry out legitimate investigative journalism and legitimate investigations. I don't have the answer to that. I don't have the answer to what happens then. I mean, you know, newspapers are slowly ...

The only thing I would say about that is that the two newspapers that I just mentioned that actually exposed this whole scandal, and the Times, between them, are losing more than £100 million a year, and I think that's something we should seriously think about, because there may ...

I think you're absolutely right. I think whatever the future body is, it needs to be robust, it needs to have teeth and it needs to be able to do its job in a way that would keep newspapers making sure that those crimes that have been committed are ...

Absolutely.

Absolutely. I think what has been happening is absolutely criminal and outrageous, and I think those responsible -- those who have committed those crimes should be punished. Because, you know, again the flipside of that, what was committed is also expected of those organisations in Russia. So -- and I think it ...

I think the only thing I would like to say is that it needs to make sure that the freedom of the press remains, especially of the press that holds those in power to account, because celebrity gossip, tittle tattle, is actually readily available in Russia. It's readily available ...

Yes, absolutely. I'm not averse by any means. I have nothing against statutory backstop because I think everybody in the industry has to be part of this new future body in order for it to work.

I think they are -- I think that those are the most simple and yet most effective way. Coming from the newspaper industry myself, I understand and I see that those would be the most effective, because editors loathe making apologies, especially in the same place where the victim was wronged ...

No, I think they shouldn't be sitting editors. I think other individuals in this Inquiry have previously said that there should be journalistic experience and I agree with that, but I think the way to overcome that is they should be ex-editors or recently retired editors who should sit ...

But also he/she feels beholden to those who appoint them because they may hire or fire him at any point. So it's a sort of a simple detail, but I think there should be a tenure given to the person who is appointed to any future body that ...

Yes.

Well, I think it was referring to the way appointments were made to the PCC, because they were done very untransparent manner and nobody -- the public certainly don't know, but even I didn't know how the appointments were made. So I think it needs to be done in ...

Yes, absolutely, but advertisers, as far as I can see, would like to be part of that because it creates a community in which you know that the ethics of journalism are adhered to.

Yes, absolutely, and then there could be the -- penalties could be imposed. You give sort of a badge of honour for those who are part of it, and then the ones that are not part of it, advertisers just don't choose to advertise on.

No, I think I'm not averse to statutory backstop, because I think there needs to be a way of making sure that everyone in the industry is part of this regulation, regulatory body, signed up to it, and that includes online as well. I don't see why there ...

Yes, of any practices. I can confidently say that at least on my watch, since I've acquired the Evening Standard in 2009 and the Independent in 2010, none of the journalists have been getting up to any illegal activity.

I went further than just speaking to the editors. I asked Andreas Whittam Smith, who is the founder and the first editor of the Independent newspaper, to carry out investigations in both the Evening Standard and the Independent titles, which he did conduct and came back with a clear -- no ...

Yes, absolutely.

I think there should be, but I don't think keeping records would be the best way. I can't tell you what -- yeah, you're absolutely right. I think there should be a way of preventing influence on governmental policy by media organisations, but I'm not sure. I ...

I think that's going too far because that, again, goes to a place where we can't have an open exchange of ideas. Because -- okay, I'll give you an example. If I saw the Prime Minister and we discussed Russia, we would talk about it in one way ...

Yes.

By "recorded", meaning just kept of record of?

Thank you very much for making that clearer than I could possibly.

Yes, absolutely.

Yes.

Absolutely.

Yes. I think -- I think because then, again, it completely changes the whole balance of how things work in Westminster, because politicians and journalists speak off the record, they leak stories, they -- some politicians have better relationships with some journalists, depending on what newspapers they are, and I think if ...

Mm-hm. To be really honest with you, I can't remember now what I was referring to by "senior staff". I apologise for that.

Yes.

Sorry, let me just ...

But what happens then if, say, there are personal relationships? Would you then say, "You cannot be friends with somebody, you can't see somebody you have a personal relationship with, because of that reason"? So I think that's what I was trying to say. There's a creation ...

I think that's more -- as far as politicians, that's more -- could be said about Westminster journalists. So that's the relationship there and there's a real symbiotic relationship. I think as far as I'm concerned, anyway, as far as proprietors and politicians are concerned, we just ...

Mm-hm.

Mm-hm.

Well, I think we -- politicians -- even though I did say that they overestimate the influence of newspapers, and I think they do, and it does make them more feeble because -- and I think that is the downside of the press, but it's a small price to pay for having ...

Exactly.

Yeah.

Well, I think I would say that it depends on the relationship. Again, if they've had personal relationships, then no, but the question is: was there an attempt to influence policy or was policy influenced through those meetings? I think that's the crucial question. So, you know, I ...

Appropriate about the number of meetings?

(Nods head)

(Nods head)

I think that's it.

No.

Okay.

Absolutely. I think as we've seen in recent revelations, there's been extraordinary abuse of power by the press and I think that should be -- that shouldn't happen again, and what the outcome of the Inquiry would be should prevent that from ever happening again.