Yes.

I have some, yes.

Yes -- no, there are instances where there is not sufficient remedy, I agree with that.

Right.

In terms of mediation and so on?

Yes.

In the bread and butter issues and so on, it's been pretty effective.

Yes, I do. I do. The PCC's come in for a lot of criticism recently, but if you talk to most journalists, I would suggest, they would say, "Gosh, we don't want to be brought up in front of the PCC. That's bad news."

As I say ...

I don't know. Some sort of financial -- I don't know. I don't know. It's not an issue which I feel confident in answering, particularly --

As I say, strongly encourage.

It seems to me the PCC is not far off being pretty good, and that a way should be found, if it's possible, to get everybody to sign up to it.

No. I accept that. I don't -- I mean, otherwise you have very strict regulation by Parliament, which seems to me not --

Indeed.

No, I think -- I mean, I don't think it should be optional. It should be strongly discouraged for people to opt out. I think you do need to have some sort of --

What, membership of the PCC?

Well, I understand Lord Hunt is addressing this. It seems to me that some of the things we've been talking about today do suggest that the regulation system was not perfect, and had the PCC -- it seems to me, again, speaking personally, had the PCC had more powers to ...

Yes.

Yes. I mean, you can cover -- you can have a balance towards celebrities and football in a red top and have other subjects copied in -- covered in broadsheets, but no, I take your point. No, the test is the same. The test should be the same.

Yes.

I take your point. No, probably not. I mean, this issue about footballers, for example, no, I don't think it should be different.

Yes, quite possibly, actually. I mean, we -- those who say we have -- it's difficult to argue with those who say we do have two presses. I think that's true. Although I'm not sure the gap -- the difference between the Evening Standard and the Independent is that great ...

Yes. Yes.

It seems to me that the press is -- has been playing the PR game to a dangerous degree, and it needs to stand back from just promoting celebrities and so on, and that while it's fair enough for a celebrity to say, "Can I read my quotes back ..." or ...

Yes.

Yes.

Yes, I think it does.

I think it's -- I think politicians are perhaps more concerned about the media than is healthy, very often. Particularly in terms of just day-to-day headlines and so on. There's the expression "the fight for tomorrow's headlines", and I know certainly under the Labour government and now this ...

I don't think so, no.

I'm in the dark about the relationship, for example, between the News of the World and the police. I don't understand it. My sense is that individual police officers are -- well, certainly senior police would not -- would certainly not condone anything like that.

Yes. I mean, I don't know of specific instances, but it's long been -- I think it's fair to say it's long been recognised among journalists that very often the police will tip off friendly journalists and who knows, they may get a meal out of it ...

I don't know.

Yes, it has. I think it has. It seems to me there's been an increasing -- there's been a sort of creeping acceptability of some of these practices. Whereas in the past they might have been used to stand up a story, to prove that a story is correct ...

Both. But I have no concrete knowledge of it.

I've heard it talked about, but as no more than hearsay.

No, not absolutely. In terms of subterfuge? I'm sorry, no. No, in terms of justifying subterfuge, no, I wouldn't say that.

Not absolutely, no.

Well, the old-fashioned notion of information, education, so on. I think entertainment is a legitimate part of it.

Mm.

I think the PCC code is generally very, very good. It's senior executives on newspapers, lawyers, bringing all their experience to bear and one is slightly feeling one's way. Whether there's a gap, I don't know. Again, if I may say so, it seems to me ...

Yes. Yes.

Yes, I think that's fair.

Yes.

Yes.

I'd find it incredibly difficult. I think if you're -- I think if people really -- if public figures are living a lie, in some sense, figures who are known to the public, in some sense they are living a lie, then they must expect to come under the scrutiny ...

It is very fuzzy, absolutely. We had a conversation in the office a couple of years ago about a television presenter who was having an affair and we had great anxious debates about whether they could do their job as an interviewer and so on, given what was in their ...

I find it very, very difficult. I mean, the Independent and the Independent on Sunday are papers which tend not to think that footballers' sex lives are of interest and I'm proud of working for those newspapers. Equally, I suspect one can imagine a situation when you'd say ...

I think I find it an incredibly difficult question. I mean, we have endless arguments in our own office about whether a footballer's sex life is in the public interest or not. Very often there's a -- you could say footballer X, so what if they're having an ...

I generally think fishing expeditions are a bad thing, yes. You can have a strong suspicion, but you need to be pretty confident you've got -- you're going after something.

Well, it seems to me the PCC code is pretty good in this respect. I mean, I know this is -- it's all being reviewed at the moment, but generally I think if you talked to most journalists, they would say the PCC code is pretty good.

I do think ...

No. I don't think so.