I don't remember a conversation with Mr Mandelson about this specifically, but if a conversation took place, it would have been about a call on November 10, and it was nothing to do with the support of the Conservative Party; it was about support for Afghanistan. There was no ...

First of all, there was only one call with Mr Murdoch, and it was on November 10, and that was a call that was related to Afghanistan and you have five letters that are affidavits from people who were on that call -- four of them on that call, one of ...

I'm grateful.

I find this very difficult to read because of the light type here. Perhaps you can just read out the section that's relevant.

Mm.

No, what day is Mr Mandelson referring to? He was referring to a call that took place when?

What day?

What day is it referring to, please?

The new bundle or the old one?

Tab 8 of my bundle?

Yes, I understood that.

I don't know what's coming but I'm happy to take the question.

Anybody else who wants to put questions as well, I don't know.

I don't envy your job, but I know you're doing a great job.

-- not decreed by legislation, so I think there is a way but I think we have less to fear from the proposals that you're talking about, about a statutory underpinning, than people think, and certainly if there are recalcitrant members of the press who are not prepared to join ...

There has to be greater openness and transparency, as I've said, and I just repeat that.

I don't think -- I do want to answer you previous question about regulation because I think it's important. I've never been one -- and this may sound surprising to people. Despite ...

I may say I think there's quite a lot to learn from America, where this is a live debate.

Sorry, I moved from the initial point of your question about self-regulation.

As you know, there's a debate about whether the BBC should be in local radio, whether it should simply be commercial radio, and how the integration of local newspapers with local broadcasting, with local television and local radio should happen.

It's clear to me, however, that without some ...

This is why I defend the freedom of the press and the right of the press to have the powers that they have, because without shining the light on potential corruption or maladministration or the abuse of power -- and that's true at a local level as well as at ...

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I have tried to give some thought to this. When the BBC was set up in the 1920s and then developed its licence fee system in the 1940s, it was clear that there was a market failure. In other words, the finance that was available for supporting quality broadcast journalism ...

Can I just say, by way of introduction to this section, that I would make a distinction between two roles that this Inquiry might have, and indeed the way that further self-regulation or regulation may go. I think there is the issue of dealing with wrongs that have to be ...

Yes.

Yes.

I had expressed my concern to a number of people about what was happening, but I can't remember a specific conversation with Mr Miliband. Perhaps there was one, perhaps there wasn't. I did raise it with Mr Clegg, I remember, at one point.

Yes.

This letter was independently done by me. I didn't consult anybody before I sent that letter.

And that was a request that he answer with a memo that I think you now have about the various pros and cons of taking action. It's at that point that I think we might have looked at the other evidence available within government and that's the point ...

You're talking about the second letter. My first request to him was before we left office.

Yes, and the report that was being done by the culture and media committee. That was the prompting for -- asking whether something had to be done.

Look, we did not know about -- as I said in my speech in the House of Commons about this matter, we did not know ...

Yes, I remember.

Entirely, because he had his family with him and they were talking to Sarah and they were talking about -- we were all talking about our children.

I think I've already answered that. If I'd known that he was planning anything like that, I would have told him to desist from this. This was a bad mistake, it was a wrong thing to do, and I told him so once I found out about it ...

No. Our baby had just been born. He was bringing a present for our baby with his wife and his family, and we were talking about children. I mean, if I had known that he was planning any political initiative, I would have told him not to do it, but ...

-- if you thought it was important. I think it communicated, if I'm right -- and this is all I remember, and I haven't asked for a text to be disclosed but it's your right to ask for them if you need them -- but I think it communicated a ...

Well, they're not my texts. They're my wife's texts. I think you would have to ask her --

But you are putting words into News International's mouth. I don't know. All I reported to him was that News International had made it clear that they wanted-- they didn't like him, of course, and I think they had editorials saying that Tom Watson had to go ...

No, this was -- look, News International had taken the view that Tom Watson was to be held culpable for anything that had happened in 2006, I think, and this was still the line that they wanted to pursue.

I don't want to get involved in this because I don ...

I think we're talking about a conversation that you've asked me about that Mr Watson had with me in 2010 Mr Watson has phoned me up and he's asking me what's happening, and I remind him of what happened in the past. I'm not giving ...

Yes.

I would have thought that you move away from the daily briefings that is to what's called the lobby -- this will be very unpopular with people who are now in the gallery listening to me, some of whom are in the lobby -- that you would have someone who was ...

The guidelines were, as I said, that they had to go through the official head of communications, who was a civil servant, and this is an issue that will have to be resolved at some stage because we've had political appointees as press offices and you cannot say that ...

Yes. As I said right at the beginning -- and I don't know if you picked me up in the way that I might have expected. I said that we should have changed the lobby system and changed the system where people relied on exclusive briefings and had a far ...

Yes.

Yes.

Look, you have special advisers. They're part of the government machine now. They're a new innovation. They have a role to play in defending the minister and defending the policy. You have competition between special advisers in different departments because that's the nature of politics. You have ...

This was before he had gone. I don't know anything about this, because I don't think, despite the fact that my name is mentioned in this letter, Gus O'Donnell and I talked about this in any detail, and I don't really know much about this incident ...

Mr Whelan was not, working for us at that time at all, and Mr McBride -- I don't know which year you're referring to.

These sound very dramatic comments. No, they're not near the mark at all. Quite wrong and quite the opposite of what actually happened.

I think, if I may say, on the incident that you're referring to, there was an interview given to the Guardian and it was about ...