Thank you, sir.

Sure about that?

That embellishment is referred to in Trade Union circles as the NISA clause, the News International Staff Association clause, and what I want to suggest to you is that you had some discussion or people in News International had some discussion with Mr Blair or officials on his side to ...

You see, that --

Thank you. The final matter then is in relation to the industrial relations legislation. Mr Jay showed you an article yesterday by Mr Blair about what Labour was proposing. I think you're aware that Labour introduced a statutory mechanism whereby a trade union could apply to a state body ...

Are you aware that the NUJ has for a long time been seeking the insertion in contracts of employment, not just at News International but other titles, of a conscience clause, that's to say a provision by which it is forbidden to discipline a journalist who refuses to do ...

You don't accept that?

And indeed, one of the journalists who gave evidence through Ms Stanistreet said that the absence of the NUJ meant that there was nowhere to turn.

But if the NUJ had a presence, it would be somewhere for a journalist to turn, should they feel that they were under pressure to do something unethical.

And?

Why not?

Do you accept that were the NUJ permitted to represent members in News International titles, that would be at least one step towards the eradication or prevention of the unethical story-gathering practices which Lord Justice Leveson has heard about?

That staff association, News International's staff association, made an application to the public official who deals with these matters for a declaration or a certificate of independence, which failed, because the certification officer found that the organisation was under the influence of the employer. Is that right?

That staff association was set up by News International itself, and indeed funded by News International, wasn't it?

Do you accept that the absence of the NUJ having any form of recognition whatever at News International means journalists have got no independent place to go to be represented should they wish to make complaints about bullying or indeed any other matter at work?

-- or would you accept their democratic decision?

You say you would have no choice. Do you mean as a matter of law --

Can I turn to the second topic in relation to the NUJ itself. Everybody knows that News International derecognised all its unions in 1986 and the reasons for that are well-known. It is the case that the National Union of Journalists, indeed no independent union, is permitted to represent journalists ...

Can I just ask you this: as far as you're aware, there's been no investigation within News International of allegations of bullying of staff?

This is MS1, paragraph 1.1:

"I worked ..."

This is a journalist of 30 years' experience:

"I worked for the News of the World for over three years. There was tremendous pressure. Everyone talked about the byline count. Reporters had to do what they needed to get the story."

And ...

Mr Murdoch, let me give you two sentences from evidence which she recorded from a journalist.

Absolutely.

Have those matters not been drawn to your attention?

Ms Stanistreet gave the evidence as General Secretary of the NUJ.

Sorry, Mr Murdoch. The evidence I'm referring to is described by Ms Stanistreet as endemic bullying, huge pressure to deliver stories, whatever the means, overwhelming commercial pressures which are allowed to dictate what is published, and the overweening power and control of editors over their journalists and of employers ...

Yes, that's not quite the point --

Mr Murdoch, we know that News International set up the Management Standards Committee and indeed you said this morning you set up inquiry after inquiry in response to the unethical practices in gathering material for publication. Are you aware that the Inquiry has heard significant evidence of unethical practices in ...

I understand.

Of course.

Sir, the first is what might be thought to be the unethical treatment of journalists and photographers, a factor which we say contributed to the unethical news gathering which you've been investigating. Secondly, whether allowing the National Union of Journalists to represent members wouldn't be a good protection ...

Sir, John Hendy representing the National Union of Journalists.

We'd like to put some questions about the culture, practice and ethics of News International in relation to its own staff in the light of some of the evidence that you've heard in the Inquiry. I gave notice of ...