No.

Okay.

It's not a democracy at a newspaper. Autocratic.

Yes, absolutely.

Yes, absolutely.

I think in general terms, sir, it's a case of you will do as you are told and you live in that environment.

No. Totally understand, yes.

Sure.

Specifically, I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this.

I don't know how you can compare local papers to national newspapers. I think that's a very unfair comparison. They work at a different pace and there isn't the same pressures that you're under.

Mm.

Yes.

Mm-hm.

There wasn't a culture at all.

Nowhere near, nowhere near. There were elements of. It was a considerably smaller paper and I think that was a contributing factor.

Yes.

I can't say that I could distinguish between the two. If there wasn't a culture, then you wouldn't see an alternative product.

He was in a different department to me, sport. I can only think of what I went through. There are probably aspects of it that chime with me, yes.

I didn't -- I heard parts of it.

Sorry.

I don't really want to go into specifics.

Yes.

Yes.

I think in the past you've spoken to witnesses where you've asked them questions as to why they haven't done certain things and they're at a senior level. Well, you don't do anything unless you are told to do something.

From the editor. Every part of the paper is dictated and controlled by the editor.

The culture?

Everything emanates from the editor.

The answer's yes.

I'll be happy to answer.

Sure.

I think you know I have an employment tribunal claim against News International. If you want me to talk about that, I will do, happily, but I'm sure that will cross over into that.

Culture, I would say, the sea change was post Mosley. That's when we really felt a big big difference. Pre that, nowhere near -- nowhere near the extent. We looked at stories that much more. We -- I think people have said this in the past and I will reaffirm this ...

I do, yes.

Yes.

Okay.

Right.

Okay.

Certainly. On what I believe you're referring to.

Well, I think it's a matter of record mistakes were made, and I suppose we all learn from mistakes and we tend to learn more from losing than winning, but that's when Mr Myler turned up. He was there to perhaps correct mistakes that had been made in ...

In what way, sorry?

No, it wasn't.

Sorry, did, I beg your pardon.

It did, yes. I think the culture changed throughout newspapers at that time for all the obvious reasons. We suddenly got seminars on the PCC, whereas they weren't around before. We were given legal briefings. Everything appeared to become a lot more formal.

I can't recall instantly, but if you've made your point to the editor and it was ignored, he then asked you to do something, then you did it.

I think it is, yes.

I must admit I can't remember an occasion of this ilk. I'm sure there was occasions where an editor would want you to effectively deceive someone, yes.

I was told to.

Yeah, I'd developed a very good relationship with Clarence and I liked him a lot. I felt very uneasy.

I think he believed, from memory, and I can't be sure, that that wouldn't be a successful outcome.

"No".