Thank you.

No, not really. I think that's fine.

Mm. Yeah. Yeah.

If you find out what went on.

Absolutely.

Well, all I would comment on that would be that if you have a bad cop, is making a note going to stop him?

Is that from a public perception point of view that you're addressing this or is it from a real point of view, if you know what I mean, ie to stop bad practice or bad cops?

Can I ask you a question on that?

Yes.

Yes.

I suppose not, no. I suppose -- my concern is that certain officers -- I mean, if this was across the board -- it's just working within different forces. There's clearly different politics at work in different forces, and I would just be concerned that some people would use it as ...

Well, I could just see -- the way you describe it: absolutely nothing. I just see practically that bearing in mind -- I've only become aware of the true -- some of the true politics that are at work in various forces through this Inquiry, and it concerns me that that could ...

It depends on the system.

I can see it -- selfishly, I can see it as just another excuse for somebody not to talk to us. I can also see a danger that hasn't been mentioned, if it's just a recording of the number of meetings, in that -- I mean, it only takes one ...

Well, I'm interested -- what I've heard today, that if we could have a -- if there was a sort of situation where police generally were allowed to be more open, then the whole rule book could be torn up and start all over again. I'm just looking at ...

Yeah.

I've no idea. I don't know why. Every time you rang Leicestershire police on that inquiry -- and it was a lot, from every media organisation -- you were told: "It's a Portuguese police inquiry. You'll have to contact the Portuguese police." And of course, they were fully ...

We would have agreed -- we could have agreed a mechanism with the police whereby we would put the situation right, yes. We only wanted to know what happened with Madeleine, and so that would be something that -- we would want to be carrying accurate information. That's the whole point ...

No, it isn't. It absolutely is not. The only issue is, taking it to another crime, in my experience, if a fact has emerged during the course of an ongoing investigation and that fact is actually incorrect but it's sneaked into the media and become more widely reported ...

Yeah. It was about -- I'm flying blind because I don't know fully what Leicestershire did or did not know, but they were the UK arm of the Portuguese investigation, and it relates to the forensic test results, which became the key aspect. Portuguese police leaked in briefings in ...

Saying I'm critical of Leicestershire police -- I just believe that accuracy is only achieved -- or there's a greater chance of achieving accuracy by dialogue. I can't understand how somebody refusing to have any dialogue with you can possibly improve accuracy, and you need to have trust for ...

The answer, I would suggest, is, you know, probably not, in the sense of if it continues to happen, if something continues to happen, then the punishment is probably not achieving the deterrent effect. Is that --

And I get my moment now.

Yes.

Absolutely.

Well, neither am I, then.

I would suggest that it was a thing that we do not like. It wasn't anything that anybody wanted. Newspapers aren't there to upset people. They're actually there to listen to the readers and act for the readers. I mean, Jim described this earlier on, and that ...

But I haven't finished my answer.

It was taken more seriously at our newspaper -- I can only speak about our newspaper -- than I think is the general opinion within the confines of this Inquiry.

Right.

Ah, excellent.

Absolutely, but scarce resources are not just restricted to the public purse. Scarce resources are prevalent in the media world as well and when -- the threats of fines and High Court actions, et cetera, they have a real impact on the way newspapers operate.

Absolutely, yeah. I might not agree with all of it, but what I am saying is that, yeah, I think -- I actually think -- I mean, I heard you say to Mr Jay on Thursday: "Don't get me started", and don't get me started, but actually, I am one ...

I don't think it's just because the Inquiry is under way.

Yes, and I'm sure in the past that's happened. I just -- that's not the impression I have here. I was very impressed -- when the -- I forget -- I'm sorry to not be able to name the person who has said this to you, but I remember watching ...

I remember hearing that and thinking: absolutely. I think absolutely. It was a new Attorney General -- he's not now, but at that point relatively new, and he took the decision to prosecute the two newspapers, the Sun and the Mirror, on a case that wasn't even going to ...

I may be wrong, I may be wrong, but I think you've heard a subeditor say to this Inquiry it was a sea change in the industry.

Exceptional. What I would say is that what seems to have happened in reality is that there is a perception that until -- the ground has shifted, and that until somebody is now actually charged, there is a perception that you can still run stuff, although it would not have any ...

I agree. I think the realistic position that I -- that seems to exist at the moment -- I mean, I heard what you said to Mr Murray, and obviously you're right, absolutely. The moment somebody is arrested, the case is active.

Yes, that's right. I mean, basically with the benefit of hindsight, which is a wonderful thing, it now seems that Mr Jefferies' arrest was based, at best, on minor inconsistencies and something he may or may not have said. In other cases that I've worked with where people ...

It was absolutely not the police.

I understand the information was relayed to us via a news agency and I understand that the source of it -- well, it certainly wasn't the police.

My personal experience from the moment I arrived was that no, there was absolutely zero guidance from the police about any of the enquiries that came to us.

Most journalists on other newspapers at that time, most national newspapers at the time. I am aware of the evidence given by Mr Wallis to the Inquiry. It is possible the Mirror did have information, but I'm not aware of any other newspaper being given that information. As I ...

Well, I have been told that they weren't giving any off-the-record guidance.

That's right.

Yes. I'm referring to -- I have to say it's hearsay evidence because it's come from colleagues, but it's not -- it's slightly better than that, in the sense that I was obviously then involved in the ongoing investigations relating to Mr Tabak and I found the ...

Yes, I think unfortunately that's a -- you've found out -- I think it was at new year and I was on annual leave at the time, so I didn't actually write the Chris Jefferies coverage at the start. I got involved in the investigation from the point of ...

The real thing that impressed me was they were always available with information and it was an ongoing -- it began to become an extremely dangerous situation, real life situation, and they always had time to talk to you, they always had time to guide you, which was critical.

There's ...

Absolutely, yeah, and Northumbria police were exceptional, in my opinion, in handling the Raoul Moat, which was a very, very difficult incident.