So the market is really, really bizarre, and we can only hope that it's going to -- that will resolve itself as it matures.

I have some ideas or some pointers to where I think the issues lie. In the end, it's really all about money, because the reason there are fewer reporters in coroner's courts or magistrate's courts or covering health authority -- you go to a health authority board and ...

I think the -- one of the prime areas that we see as a potential area for benefit, something that can be positive to come out of the Inquiry, would be an extension of the checks and balances that are used in the issue of -- in the issuing of press cards ...

We're constantly striving to ensure that the copy that we are filing -- well, on a commercial basis, that it can be used easily by newspapers, that it's self-contained and that it's full. So it's a fair, balanced and accurate report of court procedures, for example, or ...

So in actual fact, these things, really, we apply the Press Complaints Commission code of conduct and for my part, when we engage staff, we provide them with company rules and regulations which embodies the PCC code, so everybody gets a copy.

Just to back up Matt on what he's saying there, subterfuge, and indeed all those areas that are covered in the Press Complaints Commission code of conduct, we would only supply the test of: is this in the public interest? And that's the test for engaging in subterfuge ...

Right. Well, we operate three websites of our own, three news websites, the main one being Click Liverpool, which is an online newspaper which we ourselves produce, but we also supply copy for other -- for newspaper websites, national newspaper websites, regional newspapers and so forth. Broadcast -- radio stations have websites ...

I also think that what happens is that the example that Matt's given is the tabloid journalists are alert to the scrutiny that they are under, and possibly the other end of the market are less so because they don't feel that they're under the spotlight.

For ...

I think essentially -- well, the Inquiry's heard a lot about the various excesses that have happened in various quarters, and so it must be a good thing that those activities are been reined back or excluded.

What the impact is in the mind of the public is probably something ...

Yes, definitely.

I think there's been a hugely heightened sensitivity on the part of journalists.

Are you saying sensitivity on behalf of the journalists or the public?

24-hour news is a real element of change that has come to bear in the last -- really, in the last ten years. Not only is it now television, it's also the Internet, and you're talking about instant reporting in all forms of the media. But when you have ...

Yes, I've been representing James Bulger's mother, Denis Fergus, in press matters for the last 17 years, slightly longer, and she is a direct client and friend of mine. But that's very different from the raw emotions that you get immediately after an event. In that case ...

Yes.

There are a number of issues that are raised by the Internet and the rise of exchanges of information and syndication. You know, evening newspapers, weekly newspapers are syndicating out their stories themselves to national newspapers, sometimes through a group agent, sometimes directly, sometimes through a press agency -- through press ...

That's correct.

Yes.

Yes, complaints quite often will be routed through the newspaper that has published the story. They will receive a complaint and it will be referred to us as the authors of the story.

Well, speaking for my own agency, we do get complaints from members of the public who -- about whom stories have been written or about -- or who objected to the way a story has been written or about the conduct of a member of our staff. When a complaint is made ...

Yes, I'm talking here about complaints routed through NAPA about the conduct of its members. A very small number. Probably in the last ten years, I think, there may have been eight or nine.

I'm pleased to report that this year I know of none, and they would come through my office, because we provide the secretariat to NAPA. In the last five years, less than you can count on the fingers of one hand. So I would say -- if there were two ...

Anecdotally, there are a lot of stories that are told, and probably the main ones boil down to paparazzi who will act in teams so that -- you know, there are at least two in a team, maybe more, and one will provoke a celebrity into some angry reaction by going ...

It's hard to say where the dividing line actually comes, except that to say that our staff do carry press cards which have been issued through NAPA. I think we would question whether a lot of the photographers, say, on the streets of the capital are either trained as ...

Well, the reality is that that's what newspapers want. You know, they want celebrity pictures. Magazines -- the whole explosion in the celebrity and show business magazine market has created a demand for those celebrity paparazzi red carpet-type pictures. So again, a lot of NAPA agencies -- I say "a lot ...

I think one of the factors is that we -- basically, less people do more work. That's generally true of the press, of national newspapers, even of the provincial press, radio and television, and for agencies it means that we can -- the economics of the business means that we can ...

That's right.

Certainly that's the demand from national newspapers, is for celebrity stories, royal stories, showbusiness of all kinds. Yes, and we -- operating within that market, we have to follow that market and so we're looking for those type of stories.

Certainly speaking for my own agency and my knowledge of others, back in the 70s and 80s, a lot of our effort went into reporting what can be described as provincial news, in our case from Merseyside, from Liverpool. So industrial news, council coverage, court coverage. You know, we did ...

And on the gatekeeper of the press, we operate along with any other media organisations. We act as gatekeepers in that we vet and issue press cards which are issued by the UK Press Cards Authority.

Oh, right, yes. We are a self-help organisation in that all the officers of NAPA are agency principals or directors of agencies.

Which page are we on here, sorry?

Essentially no, it merely elaborates some elements of the code in respect to the way they apply to agencies, which give some detail about the services that we offer and the way that we can represent more than one newspaper at a time.

Indeed, and some in Europe and the USA.

Correct.

Is does.

It is.

It is, yes.

I'm Chris Johnson and I'm treasurer of the National Association of Press Agencies and editor of Mercury Press agency in Liverpool.