Thank you.

I was wondering, sir, whether you were possibly on the point of saying something about libel and then you didn't. Did we stop you in your prime?

I would like to conclude on a very specific point that is absolutely, in our view, fundamental to freedom of expression in the UK, and I said it -- I alluded it to it in my seminar presentation but I want very much -- and I said it this morning in the ...

It's your area and not ours, but is there not already a de facto recognition of some element of prejudicial activity in terms of early determination of meaning?

We would like, sir, to jointly submit in due course the full report that we're doing jointly on alternative dispute resolution and currently we expect it to be published in March, and we've done a draft of it, which I trust you received. We have an advisory committee ...

I'm not sure -- I accept what you say, sir, in that it's a prediction more than anything else. The dangers -- I hope I have given a reasonable fist of drawing upon the dangers of statutory elements to regulation around the world. I hope I have pointed out that ...

It probably feels like years.

We see no need in a robust environment for any statutory element to regulation, where there is, as I've outlined, I hope, strong editorial practice, where there is a good code and there is robust self-regulation as set out in this form or in variance of that. We believe ...

Where there -- we're constantly, in the media, in the broader sense of media, coming up against all these dilemmas of data, of the other sense of privacy, which is corporations and search engines and others, and ISPs holding information about individuals, the Wikileaks case. All kinds of issues flying ...

Correct. You do, however, because of the fast-changing nature of the media, particularly now in the digital age, you do need -- I think if you're a former editor 20 years ago, you're probably not in touch with the immediacy and the changes that are happening exponentially in the ...

I completely endorse that point.

More broadly, we see a strong independent framework of self-regulation where the regulator does the complaint mediation work that it does now, that it strongly facilitates ADR in -- alternative dispute resolution in its many manifestations -- and I think that's a very important carrot to ...

I would also, Mr Jay, say that Hungary isn't a far flung place about which we know little and care even less. It is now an integral member of the European Union, the European Commission and the European Parliament. The European Parliament, along with the White House, the OSCE ...

Yes. In many cases, French beaches are very happy places to be.

Correct, sir. It is within the same -- originally, citing Article 8, in other words the same body of law that operates now in the British jurisdiction. However, the codification into the French constitution as a constitutional right gives it further strength. It is a very -- which partly goes to the ...

And again, it would come into the points I'd like to make at the appropriate time on editor management and corporate governance.

Many indeed, yes. No, but I think by way of example, at least in part --

Point absolutely taken, sir. I mean, what I would say -- two things. One is a practical, one is a broad one. There is already, correct me if I'm wrong, an assumption of a requirement in good journalism to test your story or test your supposition against the person about ...

Yes, I would. I would also point you back to Ian Hislop's testimony of a week or two ago, where he talked about injunctions simply being used to stop coverage in perpetuity of issues.

It has been, from time to time, a bit like Churchill and democracy. I can't think of a better way of dealing with the issue than leaving it to the discretion of judges, and as with any judgment, one can always argue the toss and agree or disagree with ...

I would be strongly worried about the first proposition. After all, it is the same Parliament that keeled over at the first sign of trouble when it came to the superinjunction and Trafigura. Parliament's commitment to -- and the same Parliament that tried to get -- to change freedom of information ...

Well, the current public interest test, insofar as it exists in libel, namely the Reynolds defence, we have contended right from the outset, and I'm pleased to say I think this seems to now have broad consensus in the originals of the draft bill and in the joint committee ...

The short answer is: yes.

Yes.

To answer your Article 10 question, I think I would take a more emphatic position. We, as an organisation representing freedom of expression in the UK and around the world, do regard Article 10 rights as fundamental to democracy.

Where they are impinged upon, where they are restricted as necessarily ...

Yes. There will always be -- there is no such thing as the perfect system. There is no such thing as perfect regulation, which does not mean that we, and you, sir, should not be straining every sinew to find it. I don't want to put myself in the position ...

Well, part of the answer to that question will come in, I would imagine, the more specific comments about regulation and what I would term to be the need for better regulation. We contend that there are already a plethora of laws that, legitimately or otherwise, already curtail the right ...

Sorry, I wanted to come in on a couple of points. Obviously if you take Jonathan's example of Heather Brooke and MPs' expenses and the Telegraph, there were two areas that militated against the individual and worked for the news organisation. One is the law. As Jonathan has alluded ...

Thank you. This is an important part of our submission, and humbly we would ask you, sir, to consider the view which has very rarely been made to you so far in this Inquiry that while I as an individual and Index as an organisation and I'm sure all ...

May I just elaborate further on your original question about distinguishing between free expression and a free press.

The free expression -- having discussed the issues of media, we defend free expression, whether it is doctors, whether it is academics and peer review. A lot of -- a vast amount of the ...

Freedom of the press is a subsection of freedom of expression. As I say, freedom of expression is a broader concept. Without a vigorous press and without a vigorously free press, then free expression is severely damaged, because newspapers, broadcasters and others in the mainstream media remain -- even though their ...

Mm-hm.

Absolutely, and again an area, I imagine, you will probe, which is our submission on areas where we regard the otherwise understandable incorporation of laws and norms into European Union countries, namely France and Hungary, can, if done wrongly, have an extremely deleterious effect.

So while not exaggerating the importance ...

There is a difference -- there is a huge amount of convergence but there are also differences between press freedom and freedom of expression. Freedom of expression is the broader right of individuals, as much as organisations, news organisations, whatever, to express themselves freely in all contexts but within the boundaries ...

I've been a journalist for longer than I care to remember, more than 20 years. I started at Reuters as a graduate trainee. I served in Bonn and Moscow. Then I was the bureau chief of the Daily Telegraph in Moscow and East Berlin for the events of the ...

Index on Censorship celebrates its 40th anniversary this year. It was founded as a response to Soviet dictatorship and was designed to promote free expression around the world and to highlight areas of censorship around the world. In those days, a much clearer definition between dictatorships and democracy. Over time ...

I'd be happy to.

I did so, yes.

Yes, it is.

John Paul Kampfner.

Within the first module.

If I understood your opening remarks properly, sir, these are areas 2 and 3 of your first module, namely concerning press freedom and determinations of the public interest and also media regulation.

-- that it would be presumptuous of us to be applying for core status in areas where we do not have a unique expertise --

Sir, that is understood and I am very grateful for your remarks.

Just to clarify, our application is for, as I think you --

Sir, John Kampfner, chief executive of Index on Censorship. I will seek not to detain you or the others here unduly. In conjunction with my colleague and a trustee, Mark Stephens of FSI Law, I would like very briefly to submit -- and following on from my colleague Mr Heawood of ...