No, it's not true at all. I mean, with Gashi, I mean at the time all the information that he'd provided me was accurate. I didn't regard him as an unreliable witness, even after the Beckham case. I believed and still do that the information he provided ...

Thank you.

No, they did not.

We fell out after he was deported so I've not spoken to him or dealt with him since. In fact, he was ringing me up threatening me from Albania.

Absolutely. This is a man who's made allegations against me to the police, so it wouldn't even -- the question doesn't even arise, really.

I can't recall that. I did ask our lawyers to try and get a transcript of the case, but they've not been able to do that in time, but I do recall being told by our legal team that he'd stood up in court and admitted that ...

As I said, we get stories from crack addicts, prostitutes, all kinds of sources. Our job is to test the tip that they're providing, gather information, and only if our lawyers are satisfied does it appear in the paper.

Most of the people I deal with would be regarded as unreliable witnesses. I've had front page splashes from crack addicts. A story I did about a footballer's father who was running a crack den in Nottingham, that came from a crack addict who even stole my tape ...

That's correct.

Right.

Right, okay.

Correct.

That's correct.

Correct, there was.

As I say, it's an oversight and it's an issue that I would want aired because it's an issue that I'm concerned about, how people like this can go to court and walk away with money purely on economic grounds. It's an issue that I ...

Sure.

Is that coming up?

Of course.

Absolutely, no, I agree.

That's right. As I said, it was under the subheading "Fabrication".

As I said to you, I was unaware of the terms of the settlement or they'd reached a settlement. I was told about that afterwards. Clearly I was aware of the fact there was an appeal.

No, what I'm saying about the appeal --

No, it's not wrong. I didn't know that we'd settled. I had no idea that we'd settled. Thanks for alerting me to this. It clearly was discussed with me because I've written a statement of response to the allegations that you made so I think ...

No, I didn't know that we'd --

Well --

That's right.

Correct.

Right.

Mahmood.

I can certainly recall having a conversation with Tom Crone about allegations he'd made to the police. I can recall that.

No, I'm sure it was mentioned. I cannot recall. It's the nature of my work that we are dealing with these kinds of criminals. You know, it's inevitable we have to deal with these unreliable people.

Sure.

I don't quite follow what you mean by nothing was put in place. I mean, what do you mean should have been put in place?

I can't recall. I can't recall a specific discussion.

-- we knew that the man's a liar.

I can't recall that, but what I can recall is that he was also encouraged by Mr Greenslade to speak to police and I was called in and interviewed by police over a whole range of allegations that he'd made, and each of them were later proved to ...

Correct.

And each tip that he presented we vetted thoroughly.

Correct.

Well, relied on him in that he provided tips. We would investigate each tip, independently gather evidence. We get tips from all kinds of people.

Correct.

I don't think that was the case and that's not how our legal team presented it to me. Mr Gashi would be shown to be discredited in seconds if he appeared in court. I think in one court case -- he even turned up in a court case to ...

Not at all. As I say, Mr Justice Eady went through every single tape, scanned -- I mean, the police went through all our tapes first of all, the CPS went through all our tapes and all our evidence, the police were satisfied with our evidence, the CPS was satisfied with ...

She would say whatever Gashi told her to say. As I say, you're going off on a tangent here, the gun thing. We saw a gun on the video, one of the gang had a gun. For Gashi to claim that it was his gun, it was a replica ...

No, it was Gashi's girlfriend.

Sorry, she was the girlfriend of who? Of Gashi, I think.

But we are aware that one of the members of the gang had a weapon, we're certainly aware of that, and our evidence showed that. Where it came from, I don't know.

No, I do not, no.

Mr Barr, these guys involved in the Beckham kidnap plot were serious Eastern Bloc criminals, they were jailed for other offences. These were serious villains. For them to obtain a weapon was not a big deal. The assertion that it had to be a gun supplied by Gashi, that simply ...

I've seen that, but what's the evidence that that was the gun that was on the video?