Absolutely, sir.

I hope that --

No, it's not possible at all. I'm quite confident that what I said is correct.

As I mentioned earlier, sir, I can't give you -- tell you who told me, but there may not be such a system now, but I can certainly tell you that I was reliably informed, perhaps three or four years ago, could be five years ago, sir, that there was ...

That's correct, sir.

Right, all right, okay.

I was thinking more around Elizabeth Filkin's report, sir, which I think I described the HMIC report to media/police relations as being more reasonable, and on reflection I would like to take that back. I do accept that Elizabeth Filkin's report was an honest and decent attempt ...

I have --

I wasn't, sir.

Presumably it would have been our editor or perhaps someone on our back bench at the time, sir.

That photograph was provided by -- the best put it as a member of the public, or a -- a journalistic source would be as far as I could go on that, sir. It is an investigation case which I know very well, actually, and again in relation to Mr Quick's ...

No, sir, not at all.

No, sir.

The first I knew anybody was able to intercept messages on a mobile phone was when Clive Goodman and Glenn Mulcaire were arrested.

I understand that, sir, but it does -- I mean, the point being it needs to be part of the equation, I would argue, sir.

Where you do have a problem, though, sir, and it is worth mentioning this in terms of the Metropolitan Police, like any other -- or any police force, like any other organisation, wants to protect its own interests, and where there is a story or something which is quite critical of ...

It very rarely is, sir. The most that you're most likely to hear is, "I've got an interesting case, I'll be in touch, or a press officer will", and that's the reality. That's the working reality.

I think if there were clear guidelines, sir, on what is acceptable and what is unacceptable, it would be helpful. What it needs to be is practical, so for instance every now and again I am invited to a -- mostly these days, because of my age, retirement party from a ...

I do see the point, sir. It really is -- clearly, I mean listening to this evidence, I accept that there is a need for -- to protect journalists and police officers alike, you need a framework of some sort, a system. I personally recognise that. But it's then -- if you ...

It was a rare occasion, sir, and I'm not aware of any other -- I mean, they may well have happened, but I'm just saying that made that particular press officer very vulnerable, well, to being accused of being the source of the leak.

So that's why notifying ...

I'm not surprised at all, sir, but I only mention it to put it into context, sir.

It was, sir, yes, it was.

He'd been set up by the reporter. So I've always borne that in mind to be very careful around any kind of engagement with somebody who's working on an inquiry which I might be doing a story on, lest they should be blamed for being the source ...

Well, if I could perhaps just start firstly with the -- this particular sentence:

"... runs the risk of a journalist meeting somebody who notifies their line manager and then getting information for a story later in the day which casts unfair suspicion on that officer."

What I meant there, sir, was ...

Okay. As a -- sir, as I mentioned earlier, I wrote this statement in January, and I don't think I mentioned it here, but having heard some of the evidence that's come out of this Inquiry, sir, I have changed my stance on several points.

That's correct, sir.

Well, sir, I mean "police source" could be anything, it really could. There is a lack of clarity around that, and I think that's about as far as I could possibly go.

I've been aware for some time, since last summer, about the issues of "police source". It is a very difficult one for me to answer, actually, because there could be ramifications around the police investigation which I'm currently subject to.

Mm. This is, to put it into context, sir, since last summer and the events -- subsequent to the events of last July, the DPS called where we've run stories using the term "police source", and also where there have been stories which they might perceive to have come from ...

Yes, sir.

I believe so sir. I believe so.

It's everything to do with a set of circumstances happen, there is a story around it, and I think this marking system is -- and I'm not quite sure what the criteria for the marking system is, but it's done on the number of -- presumably the number of ...

No, it's got nothing to do with who's likely to receive leaks.

I don't think you have understood it properly.

I don't think it would be appropriate for me to say so, sir.

I think --

Well, I've just been told on reasonable authority that it refers to the director of the DPA as one of his tasks. I mean, this is where I've written the -- this particular part of the statement in answer to that question. One of his jobs is to look ...

Yes.

I don't think I was, sir, actually. I mean off-the-record briefings, there has always been a problem understanding what the term "off the record" means. To some people it can mean "not for attributation". For others it can mean "not to be used at any cost, Chatham House rules ...

It's generally supportive of the police position, and particularly of what we would regard -- well, what are described as rank and file officers. I think the Sun, back in the mid-1990s, identified that it was a paper that was widely read in police canteens, as it is in army ...

I didn't say I wasn't close to them. I don't think Mr -- I knew Mr Hayman and Mr Yates relatively well. Going back in time, I can't recall being particularly close to any assistant commissioners.

It does. I think, sir, you may be referring to the evidence given by Bob Quick, when he said that he noticed myself, Lucy Panton and, I can't remember, it may have been Stephen Wright, drinking at this wine bar, which is a Davy's Wine Bar, around the ...

I met both those on rare social engagements, but on John Yates, I'd known -- I think it's probably worth putting it into context. I knew -- I first met John back in 1995, and that was a dreadful murder of a police mechanic by the name of Alan Holmes ...

I've noticed over the last few years that certainly Mayor Johnson and Kit Malthouse while he was chair of the MPA had gone out on operations with the police. To my mind it was potentially crossing over a barrier there from being, if you like, the political guardians of ...

Mixture of both, really, sir, but it would be by way of conversation. It wouldn't be necessarily as anything for a story, but that's happened on a couple of occasions. But it wouldn't be for me to act on. I mean -- you know, there are cases I ...

-- information about the arrest of people to come out, and very often it might be released by that person or the arrested person's own PR.

Well, there are various different means, sir, for --

-- which one they're being held at, sir.

No, I think there's a misconception here, sir. I think what you're seeing on television and in the newspapers where there are photographs of celebrities or well-known people who have been arrested then coming out of a police station, what will happen is if the newspapers become aware ...

Well, I am not aware of any stories or -- in terms of turning up home addresses. There was only one I can recall, and that was actually not a tip from a police officer, it was a tip from a journalist, and that was a few years ago. That was ...