Thank you.

Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick. My party was very outspoken on the issues of accountability in the press, hacking, illegal activity and so on. And I certainly remember Liberal Democrat spokespeople being lone voices on this in Parliament when it was being brushed under the ...

Didn't speak out?

No, the Milly Dowler thing transformed everything because it inflamed, quite rightly, public anger. The public, I think quite rightly, are more indifferent to the plight of politicians and celebrities, who I think they quite rightly think can look after themselves, as indeed they can. I think it is a ...

I'm certainly not asking for any thanks but it was certainly a view that clearly was held across parties that it needed to be broad and strong as an inquiry.

I'm afraid I genuinely can't remember. I'm sure I can find out, but I cannot remember. I was very clear in my own mind but I can't remember the chronology. I was very clear in my own mind, when it was obvious we had to have ...

No.

Yes. That is my recollection. The background to it is that we, the Liberal Democrats, my colleague, for instance, Chris Huhne, had been very outspoken in our criticisms of Andy Coulson when he was appointed to work for the Conservative Party in opposition. It's self-evidently an issue. This was ...

Yes.

I think in some sense, like many things in politics, it's just -- there are many mechanisms, but it's also just an issue of attitude. An outlook. I'm lucky enough to lead a party that's never been in anyone's pocket. We pride ourselves on being sceptical ...

No, no, it's a big step forward.

To be honest, I haven't explored -- I mean, I haven't explored the CPS' guidance on this, and haven't thought through sufficiently the interaction between that and a defence in legislation. But it's clearly, I would have thought, of great help to the press if they know ...

Mm.

Then you would, yes.

I think it goes a very long way to addressing the concern. I simply don't know as a sort of matter of law or legal practice whether we would need to reflect that in, say, primary legislation.

Mm.

Yes.

Yes.

Ah. I don't know whether a sort of unilateral definition by the CPS is in and of itself --

Do I think that is a helpful ...?

I think we must be very sensitive to that. If we were to in any way directly see a chilling effect on the freedom of the press we would be losing something very, very precious. However unruly or raucous it is, it's what makes us a free, democratic, plural ...

I can't speak for other parties but what I've heard has actually made me quite optimistic, actually, that there is a wide -- there is a body of opinion now across all parties that we can't -- that it's bad for politics, bad for Parliament, bad for democracy ...

Look, I think we have a once in a generation opportunity to clean all this up, to restore public confidence in our great press, and let me be absolutely clear, the public confidence has not been shaken because of press attacks on people like me or celebrities. It's Milly ...

When in fact if you scratch below the surface, most people accept, even people who have come into this Inquiry saying it must be self-regulation at all costs, actually, when you push them, they accept you might need some kind of statutory backstop. I hope the Inquiry will be able ...

I have not yet heard anyone make a persuasive case that you can have independent regulation with teeth and full participation of all parts of the sector in a way which is premised on a pick and choose, take it or leave it -- no, not take it or leave it ...

Yes. No, because then it becomes pick and choose all over again.

Yes. The Irish model certainly I think is fascinating because the way they've got around the -- for want of a more elegant way of putting it -- the Desmond problem is, if I understand it correctly, they've in effect said: if you, a press organisation A or B, want ...

Yes.

Yes.

The first thing I'd say is I think some of the way that this issue has been cast is deeply unhelpful. Some of the way that -- it's inevitable always -- the debate has become polarised suggests you're either for some Orwellian statutory infringement on the freedom of the ...

Yes.

I would say this. My overall view is that everyone seems to agree that the current oversight and regulatory framework in which the press operates is discredited. The publication and so on. So everybody agrees there needs to be reform in that area.

There is then a -- and everyone agrees ...

That's right. That's right.

No, no, sorry, I meant to say I'm open to that, but I don't have a particular figure in mind. I'm not going to just pluck one out of thin air. I can imagine it is quite tricky to define -- you know, percentage of what? Because groups ...

Yes. It's the point I mentioned earlier that size matters, but size isn't just determined at the point of a transaction. It can, if you like, creep up on you through the success of a particular media group just increasing its market share.

Incidentally, buried within this is ...

Not to my recollection to me, but I'm obviously now aware that he'd had the same conversations with Norman Lamb that I had that I referred to earlier.

Yes.

I have confidence that if we were to -- and this is, if I may add, why I think this Inquiry is so extraordinarily important, amongst many other reasons, that if you were able to make a set of recommendations which take the rather ramshackle powers which are available to secretaries ...

Look, I mean it is a real dilemma. It is a dilemma and like all dilemmas, it's not always susceptible to a simple one-off answer. I can totally understand and respect a conclusion which says: because there are probably going to be more controversial decisions in the future, maybe ...

Well, you said that, sir, and I didn't.

Yes.

No, frankly I can't provide an easy answer. Well, the easy answer is to say: therefore, just remove politicians from the decision-making together. I've given the reasons why I personally am not persuaded of that. And I have to say I don't -- I wouldn't -- I personally ...

Yes, no, no, I --

My view is that what is flawed at the moment is that the instruments available to us are quite imprecise. They're poorly defined. They're subject to a huge amount of interpretation. Notably, in this case, the plurality test. If you read in the Enterprise Act how public interest ...

Yes, yes, absolutely.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

I think there is a temptation, of course, not least in the controversy of this bid just to say look, take the politicians out of it altogether. I'd set the hurdle quite high before making that decision. I think there is a general tendency at the moment to increasingly ...