I think that's everything.

Certainly a diary note of the meeting, yes.

It's previously been mentioned that, you know, senior officers already do take -- make diary notes of who they are meeting, and, you know, very briefly for -- you know, potentially for what purpose as well. I don't see why that should be any great, you know, problem to do.

I think you ask if you're adding to the -- it depends what they're being asked to fill out and, you know, what point will that have? A full note of the discussion that takes place, obviously that's impractical -- I would suggest that's impractical and adds some ...

That is one part of it, but also internal rules of conduct as well, yes.

No, but we have a code of conduct. We are -- there are acceptable norms of behaviour, and part of our contract have to abide by that and there are sanctions that our employers can take if that is not the case.

Well, the -- in the issues that we're talking about here in terms -- there are laws that exist, you know, there are laws that are enforceable. The question of whether or not they've been enforced or not is pertinent to this Inquiry.

No, I accept that is the case, but no, that would be understandably a cause for concern. But looking at the wider picture as well, if we're looking at the broader issues of contact between press and police in this country, there is no right to information in this ...

Any restrictions that may go with that is a concern.

Well, I would certainly welcome any wider ranging contact between police and press. And, you know, for those links to be built up and that trust to be built up. Any restrictions that go with it is a matter of concern.

It's not without exception, but it's certainly, as I understand it, more common than it has been over the last few years.

Yes, yes, I have, yes. You know, you speak to officers on an informal basis and they will say, "No, I can't speak to you, talk to the press office".

The fact that there is an eagerness for communications between press and police to go through official channels such as the press office, who obviously have -- as previously mentioned -- a vested interest in putting a gloss on those news events.

Well, we have -- you know, we are in a situation at the moment where, certainly the situation I've inherited, where there are very tight restrictions on what officers are saying to members of the media. Obviously our great concern is that it will lead to lessened contact, which has ...

Yes, that's a fair way of saying it, yes.

Yes, I mean it's part of that -- part of the relationship of trust that you have to build. I mean, that's part of the job that I do, is try to build trust between myself and officers in the organisations. To enable a free flow of information in ...

Well, I mean off the record, you know, particularly in political spheres, we've seen off-the-record briefings being used as a sort of way of targeting an opponent, so you have to sift through why that information is being given to you and, you know, how you would use it.

Yes, I mean there are, yes. I mean, if something's been given off the record, then it's not attributed to anybody particular, so they are perhaps handing over that information without the responsibility that it entails, so, you know, so such information would always have to be checked ...

I have a definition in my mind, but I think it's a term that is often confused by other people, particularly not in the profession.

It's a term that needs clarifying. I work for an American organisation and they have very different views about what "off the record" means. "Off the record" can mean that that detail cannot be used for writing, so -- shall we say "off the record" means it's just for ...

Yes. I mean there's -- you know, it could be of interest for some newspapers in certain circumstances. I mentioned earlier the Evening Standard and, you know, covering stories about, you know, local crime in London.

Possibly. It depends on the operation, it depends on the story, depends on the context.

No.

It could possibly have been other organisations, but most likely it was because I worked for the Press Association, which supplies pictures and text to everybody, really. So by -- if I went along on such an event, then the details of that operation would be disseminated widely anyway.

No, my -- it was -- no, it was an official tip-off. My recollection was that it was something like Operation Bumblebee, which was about stolen goods and the recovering of stolen goods, there were a series of raids across London. There would have been a -- this is while I was at ...

I am indeed.

I can't give any great insight into that, into the period of time that I've been working in this -- I've largely been focused on the Metropolitan Police over the last few months.

I think it's also fair to say that what I'm talking about here is the last four months in which I've been in the crime reporter's role and, you know, the Commissioner of Scotland Yard is talking about a period of austerity and that is certainly ...

Yes.

Yes.

I don't think there is anything in that, in that, no.

I understand the point.

Well, when I talk about meeting regularly with officers, I'm not talking about a single officer, I'm talking about regularly with other people, you know, the number of range of --

Obligation on them to supply me with something?

Well, I think absolutely, you know. For example, at the Independent we have a £30 a head rule. I think the idea of a meal at that level being a potentially corrupting influence I think would be --

Depends on the level of the expense account.

It doesn't have to be an evening meal. It can be over coffee. I've gone for coffee plenty of times with officers. But if it's the end of the day, we've both finished our work and we're meeting outside of work, I think a perfectly ...

I would say it was potentially, yes. I mean, the -- if, you know, meeting an officer on a regular basis is -- you know, or officers on a regular basis is an essential way to go ahead and depending upon the situation, time of day, et cetera, then, you know, or ...

No, I'm -- that's very different. You know, the idea of being -- of going out and having meals with officers is a perfectly proper and essential part of what I would do as a journalist, although if there are issues of me being -- you know, police officers paying for ...

No, I think this is the nature of the -- this is just referring to the nature of the meetings that do take place in an official capacity at Scotland Yard. This is within the building, sort of set piece events that are made, whether it's a briefing with officials ...

No, it's broader than that. It's about a full range of contacts between the press and the police. I mean, you know, there's policing by consent in this country. We are acting as a conduit between the -- to an extent in sort of writing about what the ...

There are thousands of stories out there, I'm sure, every day, through the Press Bureau, through their releases and through their contacts with us. There are limited numbers that are put through to us, mostly the most significant ones of the day, but obviously there's an element of ...

I don't think it's an attempt to control what we're actually writing, but there's certainly an attempt to provide certain information that put their organisation in the best light.

What we're building here is a relationship, it's a better relationship between press and police. I mean, it would -- you know, as well as us being able to contact them, they may wish to contact us to highlight particular stories or take issue with something that's been ...

Correct.

No, it's not.

It is, yes.

Well, part of our job is through contact with police officers that we are dealing with on a daily basis. Obviously it's important for them to be able to get in touch with us on particular stories on an hourly basis.

No, sorry, I don't think I've had the home numbers for those.

Yes, home numbers I don't think so, but mobile telephone numbers certainly, yes.