Thank you.

Absolutely.

I can't recall the "pull the inquiry" part. I can't -- I'm not suggesting that I didn't say that he might go ballistic. I think one of the issues for us at that point was the amount of time it was taking. There were a number of ...

I can remember being briefed. It probably would have been Commander Sawyer.

I didn't go to any case conferences with the DPP. But I am aware that he was continuing it in terms of there were some issues around parliamentary privilege about materials that had been seized.

Yes, sir.

Thank you, sir. I shall take up that invitation and I'll write to you, sir.

I do have views, but I think in terms of the challenge that you've laid out, I would like to think about that and to write in formally about that.

I think the key concern that I have is that at the end of it we do not want ...

Thank you.

Exactly. It's to make sure that it's seen to be done and independently done.

Exactly.

Deputy Commissioners in the past have referred other Assistant Commissioners for other matters.

I believe they have.

I can't recall doing that, no. Not personally.

The latter.

Yes.

I made them through the Deputy Assistant Commissioner of the Professional Standards, Mark Simmons.

Yes, and equally to actually try to support him in terms of what was a dreadfully challenging time for him and his family and actually to see if there was anything else that we could do to help.

I can't recall him asking me to do anything particularly. I recall getting the press office to make contact with him and various other bits but I can't recall anything else.

Yes. I can't recall exactly what was said, but obviously he was extremely distressed and he naturally had his family there, it was coming up to Christmas, and he was getting a lot of personal attention and his family were getting personal attention that was not welcomed and was ...

I do.

I don't think it was right in that context. Certainly we were taking a significant battering in the media about straying over constitutional lines, et cetera, and naturally an organisation likes ours, that is a matter of concern.

I think necessity and proportionality is something that you have to review and question yourself as the information unfolds, and one arrest might lead to more information that changes your perception of what needs to be done to the next suspect in the same inquiry, so you have to constantly ...

Both arguments had some merit, as I happened to accord more with the Ian Johnston view, but there were still lines of inquiry that needed to be followed at that point.

Yes, he did.

I do, yes.

I wasn't.

I recall the Commissioner reading out a press statement that related to not standing for Commissioner and ultimately at the end of his tenure and seeing in a new Commissioner for retiring at that point from the Metropolitan Police.

I think personally I'm not sure how much bureaucracy would require to actually put those in. There's normally a diary contact and hence the stuff that we're doing anyway in London, and so I don't see it as a bureaucratic problem.

I think we started the process with the publication of all corporate hospitality and our wider publication of the various interactions. We learned lessons from people like the GLA and others, and I think the more we're exposed to scrutiny, the better it will be.

Yes.

I wouldn't even like to speculate.

I can only make assumptions on that. I don't know how they got my number, but obviously somebody who had it gave it to them.

That is correct.

One of the key challenges for any organisation is to protect its data and to avoid the mishandling of data. We have processes in place through our professional standards to monitor the use of PNC, to identify those that we identify to be misusing PNC and to deal with them ...

Yes.

That is correct, sir.

"Should" is not a good word in the evidence there, I'll take your point. In terms of openness and transparency, one of the underpinning philosophies of the Metropolitan Police Service that came in at that point in 2000/2001 is that we shouldn't be hiding away from being ...

I can't tell you exactly what the system is in the DPA.

No, I have no evidence to suggest that that would be true, it's just that the perception, as I said earlier, the perception of that conduct may leave rise to making them more vulnerable to that accusation.

We have a number of inquiries that we launched to try to get to the bottom of some of those, but in terms of personal evidence against individuals, no. Specific individuals.

It comes, I believe, from the diaries. It's the diaries of the various senior people.

That's an additional record in terms of the contacts that are outside of the hospitality.

The purpose was to respond to the concerns being raised in a number of quarters about the perception of our conduct and our relationships with the media and as a result of that I think it was a member of the Police Authority said let a light shine in and ...

It was.

Yes, sir.

Naturally it would follow that those that are frequently meeting with the press, frequently engaging in social events with the media, would be the ones that would automatically be looked at as potential sources, yes. But obviously they may well not be, of course.

I think I was more concerned about the perceptions where you have media stories that are gossip stories or embarrassing stories or leaks, then the sheer fact that you've engaged in that sort of behaviour does make you vulnerable to being accused of misconduct, et cetera, so I thought ...

No, sir, I think that as a result of this Inquiry and as a result of the events as they unfolded last year in the Metropolitan Police whilst I was still there and as the Acting Commissioner, we did actually take action to make sure that we had a common ...

I think the difference, with respect, would be that there was one style that was favoured by some members of the management board of the Met and there was another style, which was my style, where I didn't feel comfortable in that environment. So I wouldn't say it ...