You're welcome.

I think the only thing from my staff is that there is a fear that it's becoming harder and harder to talk to police officers, it's becoming harder and harder to get a release of information, quickly, timely, and clear, and that would be our main concern. Because ...

So I don't know if there is a huge variation, but from talking to other editors around a group, I don't believe so.

It's a difficult question for me to answer. I have only ever worked in England in Leicester, and that was over 20 years ago.

(Nods head)

Yes. Yes.

When I say "differences", I'm only speaking in terms of some the things that have come out from the Inquiry.

No, only that that I'd like it to be sort of clear that there is a huge difference between the regional press and what appears to be happening in the nationals, or in some nationals. The regional press is a very, very different arena and we seem to work ...

I can see that as a possibility, but I still have the feeling that it has a tinge of: if they're talking to a journalist, they have to be very careful of what they're talking about.

As I say, my only fear would be, as I mentioned before, that it's just another thing that may discourage officers from talking.

Well, my only concern in that area would be that if you are putting up an extra block, even if it's just taking a note, unless it's to officers who have an abundance of notes to take already and are always complaining about having an abundance of notes ...

I think my fear about a written record -- it already sounds like you're proposing that there may be something wrong with talking to a journalist and the mere fact that you're suggesting that everything has to be written down and taken as a note --

I am all for the free flow of information. I think it's really important in a democratic society that that happens. I'm concerned that Gwent police have announced that their officers can't talk to the media unless they are given prior permission from their press office. I ...

I know that reporters are often given notification of some arrests and sometimes they're invited to go along on raids to pick up people. Say, cannabis farms or whatever. So that happens quite a lot. When I attended the Butetown police station as a guest, I was taken into ...

Yeah. Again, this is down to the public interest, so we would have the public interest discussion about it.

We'd have to sit down and discuss what that story was and what that leak was. If it had to do with the public interest and we felt that our readers should know about it, then we would have a discussion about the story. We would look to see ...

No, I can't see one of our reporters doing that. I know that Abby, in her statement, was quite clear that she never ever asked an officer to give her information that he would be unhappy with it appearing in print.

Actively seeking? What do you mean by actively seeking that information?

No, I'm not, no.

Obviously during conversations when we're discussing stories that have come up, if there's anything at all in there that my instinct would lead me to think that there might be something awry or something not right, then I would be asking the questions: where did the information come ...

Yes.

They're scrutinised, yes.

In terms of expenses -- obviously I've outlined that we don't really have huge expense accounts, but every expense within Trinity Mirror has to be signed off by a senior editor, so every expense is seen. Any gifts or -- well, any gifts or any hospitality which is given to ...

Yes, we do talk to the reporters about maintaining a professional distance from people, yeah. Or from the police, yeah.

There's no specific training where we say, "This is how you should deal with the police", but most of our journalists will have gone through journalism school, so they're all trained. If some of them come to us as trainees, then they're on a two-year probation period ...

Are you talking specifically as regards to the police?

No, because our relationship is a purely professional one.

Then the case happened and it collapsed. There's a bigger story there, probably, than we know.

Well, obviously we had to wait for the case to happen.

Part of the meeting when the Deputy Chief Constable and the Chief Constable came to see us as well was also to do with that case, where are they informed us that they would be giving us a full off-the-record briefing on what was coming up in the case at ...

No. No, we didn't. We were able to ask the hard questions, I think, although there are still some answers that are out there that haven't been given to us yet.

I think it's really important for me that our journalists are totally professional in their dealings with the police. By that, I mean that they are honest, forthright and they deal with integrity in all their dealings with the police and police officers.

I say that because it's ...

Yes.

As far as I recall, no, I certainly haven't, unless of course you're -- you know, if a cup of tea when I visited the Butetown police station counts as hospitality, and there may have been the offer of a biscuit. I can't remember.

But I don't have any problem with it.

I certainly have no issue with a journalist taking somebody out for a drink or a journalist taking somebody out for lunch. It's just that we don't tend to do it that often.

There are. We're the biggest regional newspaper group in Britain.

Yes.

No, from what I know from my fellow regional editors -- and we do meet up quite often -- is that the way I'm expressing myself would be very, very similar to them.

I may go to lunch more often! No.

No. I think it's probably a point well worth making in terms of the differences, as I see it, certainly between the regionals and the nationals when it comes to expense accounts and expense policies -- I did a sum last week in preparation for coming down here, where I ...

Yes. Following on from the meeting that we had in our offices, the first meeting came about when the police cuts were being announced. So they wanted to talk to us about the police cuts that were coming in, we wanted to talk to them about the issues we had ...

Very much so, yes. Yeah, a very sort of professional relationship that is dealt with on that basis.

Yes.

I don't have a copy of that, no.

Certainly in relation to Gwent, it's entirely the opposite, yeah.

Absolutely. That's absolutely correct and right. In the meetings that we had with the Chief Constable and the Deputy Chief Constable, you actually find out that the higher up the force you get, there's certainly a feeling there that they're willing for more information to be released ...

I think there's a general feeling -- I've certainly noticed it as well in the past few months -- that people are deciding not to engage with each other and not to talk openly with each other. So there is almost a sense that everybody is waiting to see what ...

Funnily enough, I asked some of our reporters to put some notes together for me before I came down today, and one of them has told me about Gwent police -- if you don't mind going through this -- where, in the recent times, in recent weeks, the Chief Constable of ...

It's certainly something that a lot of my reporters talk about. Somebody like Abby -- it's interesting that Abby thinks that as well herself. Somebody like Abby, who would have regular contact with the police and would build up contacts with the police offers, would have a better opportunity ...