Thank you.

True.

I absolutely agree, and I think that is an area where there is a gap, and one of the things that I've set up in a previous -- actually, in Norfolk, was a media users group, which brought together a representative selection of the local and the regional media to ...

I understand your point. I think the organisation could possibly be the Society of Editors, which represents all editors regardless of national, regional, local, whatever.

Just to clarify the earlier statement, I didn't say that we discussed the potential guidance with the CRA; we discussed some of the issues ...

I think on any given day, we're dealing with so many different issues. There are any number of official reports that are saying things about the organisation. We do our best to fairly and accurately reflect most of those. Of course, if, as previously been said, a previous administration ...

I actually see my role exactly in those terms, and personally I've never been too concerned about people who leak information, as long as we're given the opportunity to give a balanced picture. That's where the relationship with the journalist and the media comes into play and ...

No, I'm speaking from my own experience, where we've had -- where I've had to manage situations where unhelpful information has been passed. And it's -- I describe it a bit like information through a key hole. The individual passing on the information firmly believes that he or ...

My comments there are directed at my opposite numbers, if you like, working in the organisation. I'm aware that they share the values of APCOM, they've been enthusiastic members, so they've been -- we've worked together. What I'm not aware of are the pressures that they ...

I think we've touched upon a number of them here. Certainly there was some renewed guidance which went out from Andy Trotter, who is chair of ACPO CAG, Communications Advisory Group. We discussed that, in fact, at a pre-meeting with the Crime Reporters Association -- they had their thoughts as ...

Yes. APCOM has the practitioners, if you like, that can then help shape and influence the policy.

I believe they're twofold. I think there are benefits for the organisation because it enables the organisation to have access to the most up-to-date information about most recent handling of cases and sensitivity. Also, it's certainly been an organisational benefit in the planning of the police operations, communications-wise ...

Mm-hm.

I thought some of the broadbrush findings of the Filkin report were very helpful. One thing that did come out and certainly resonated with me was the belief that there needs to be more effort put into communications outside of those communications directed to the media, and certainly I personally ...

I think a bit of both. I think it would be helpful to have what I would describe as some over-arching guidelines and parameters of which the local forces can have some flexibility to flex, to suit their own purposes, but within -- underneath the over-arching approach. I think that would ...

(Nods head)

I'm reporting what others have told me, so I'm aware of it but not through any personal knowledge. I wasn't overly surprised.

Yes, and I agree with you that -- in fact, one of the purposes of APCOM is to share sort of national learning, if you like, not just focused through our events -- we had a three-day learning event in November and a one-day learning event last year -- but also to make ...

Yes. I think some general lessons learned was that the team did exceptionally well, and that's been mentioned previously, and that's because they kept a drip of information and provided some very credible spokes. That was the detective leading the inquiry, and I think an ACPO officer, Jacqui ...

That's correct, and that's how it would be recorded on the system. In other words, we'd be creating an audit trail of everything that's coming from the office as far as is possible.

No, no, and I think we have a duty to make sure they're given a steer in the right direction.

It may be.

I prefer not to use the term "off the record". Again, I think the connotation is unhelpful. I think there are occasions where it's useful to have what I would call a background briefing, to give the context to help a journalist understand more of the story in order ...

That is correct. It's not been an issue that's troubled us much.

In part it would be, because when we have sent follow-up statements and pointed on out that our side was not properly covered, then that rarely got any coverage because then they're on to something else. So there's also a balance, that if you decide to say something ...

(Nods head)

No, I don't believe I did.

I think I'm going to have to generalise, but generally if the national media are interested in a story, it's usually because there's something -- the headlines are not going to be very clever or very good for us. They only tend to be interested in the things ...

I would hope that they do, because there are a number of occasions where officers will have some media training, and it's not just something that's there subject to when they join the service. There are various points throughout careers.

I would say that those officers whose roles ...

I do. I think there has to be caution, but I actually think a lot of it falls into that area of common sense. I mean, journalists from time immemorial -- and I used to be a journalist -- are used to, I suppose, having drinks in bars and that would be ...

Definitely no alcohol, and what will I would say is that we take it in turns. So if I'm picking up the bill on one occasion, then the next occasion my opposite number would pick up the bill. So it's done very fairly and infrequently, as you've ...

Quite possibly.

That's correct.

Yes, or if there's been some hiccup or block in the system and they've not been able to get, say, a name of someone who's been involved in an accident. I recall a recent telephone conversation with an editor who was concerned about -- I believe it was ...

I'm not so worried about them going off piste, because they know their business and they generally know what they want to put out there. What I would be mainly concerned about is that all members of the media are treated fairly and in a similar way. So if ...

Yes, that's correct.

I do. I do understand that and I do appreciate it, which is why I'm choosing my words carefully, but actually we're managing a situation of a lot of demand potentially from the media, and we either let officers, without any assistance, deal with that and potentially in ...

I think in part it is, because I think if we look at corporate communication best practice, then actually it is about managing communications, which is why I would say that what we do is about managing information to the benefit of the organisation and the public, and I think ...

That's partly correct, but the reason why we would encourage officers to contact us first would be to ensure that they had the up-to-date lines to take and the latest information, so in other words, that the police officer was -- had in his or her armoury the most up-to-date ...

Yes, that would be correct, because we would know who -- we're likely to know who's best able to speak on a particular subject and then seek to make that interview happen, but of course, with the shift system, it may -- there may be a number of people who ...

I think the former has a negative context, whereas what I'm saying -- what I'm suggesting there is that there is many, many issues, crimes and areas to speak to the media on, and actually our task is to refine down and find the most newsworthy items that are ...

I think it very much depends what the issue is and what level enquiry is being made. I draw a distinction between the different roles of police officers. There are many. In fact, I would say policing is a very complex situation to deal with from a communications point of ...

The reason is to have a direct line to the chief officers in order to advise at the highest strategic level and to ensure that the advice is -- best advice is received. That would be why I would think I report direct to ACPO.

That's correct, yes.

It is the same system. It's had a number of titles. In fact, I gather the company now has another name, Vuelio, but Solcara/Spotlight, it's basically a piece of software that allows us to manage contacts, a bit like a customer relation management system, if that's ...

What I would say is my colleagues in the Met DPA, they certainly follow similar standards of corporate communications practice, so although they're dealing with certainly much more, shall we say -- often more newsworthy issues, and more sensitive, controversial issues, the methods that they're employing are very similar ...

Yes. I'm not best qualified to speak on that, because of course I've not worked for the Met. I have worked alongside the Met on a number of special operations, but I've not been part of their team. My comments would only be as a result of ...

Yes, I suppose I do, because it's very clear that the London-based force is dealing with all the national issues. It has a unique place in not just the investigations but the issues it covers, because of course it carries out investigations on behalf of a number of the ...

Yes, it does. In fact, because of the numbers involved, there's a sizeable number of memberships from the Metropolitan Police.

Okay. APCOM is the Association of Police Communicators, and is a representative body seeking to represent all those that hold communication roles for the Police Service, primarily forces but not exclusively so. A number of police organisations, their communications staff are also members. So currently we have getting on approaching ...

I took over as chair in November 2009 and have been chair since.