Thank you.

Yes.

Absolutely. There was something else that Ed Richards and Colette Bowe said to you, I think, yesterday, which was basically, in terms of broadcasting, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

They also, I noted, left the way open in terms of the future, that there may be ...

Absolutely.

Yes.

Yes.

Well, I think -- I think it's -- it's more a question of do you see -- is this an independent body with independence enshrined throughout, but drawing on industry experience? So you have industry voices there, and clearly you need that. But whether, for example, on a Code Committee you ...

Does it work in --

Exactly.

It is, it is. I think that also followed in terms of your discussions about a code of conduct. You know, when Ofcom -- and I know this because I have been part of the process. When Ofcom is changing the Broadcasting Code, it publicly consults. The public is part of ...

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

But independent majorities throughout the Press Council, I think, are very useful examples, in terms of the funding body you heard this morning being chaired by an independent member; the Code Committee potentially having independent members. You know, weaving in independence right throughout the organisation. I think there are some ...

No. No. I simply pointed it up to say that that does exist elsewhere.

And in all of these countries exactly the same.

But I suppose I just think there's something different about accepting that perhaps at the end of the day somebody will leave the regulatory field, but if there are real and material consequences to that -- for example for a larger ...

Potentially, but I think every time we invoke Richard Desmond we have a fear of who will sit outside, and it just seems to me already, it's not just him who sits outside; there's a whole multitude of online providers, who only grow in significance, that sit outside ...

Yes and no. I wouldn't agree in the sense that incentives and compulsion both imply that you've got a reluctant media here that you're trying to draw in.

I would rather say, if we can establish a framework that you want to be in, and that the ...

-- more generally.

I think, and probably from what I said earlier on, my conclusions from looking at this go back to, I suppose: what is it we're trying to achieve here? And I think a commitment to ethical standards, as I mentioned, built into the DNA, I think, is ...

Yes. Thank you.

I don't know whether you want me to set them out in a particular order or just --

Yes. Yes, I think it does. If you go down that route, then I think it does.

That's right. In terms of requiring an audit, that's right, they don't require that. And you are right, that's absolutely a way to do it.

The other way in Australia is you actually encourage them to come to the press council first, rather than to the ...

Precisely.

That's right.

That's right. And is there any need to have a long and protracted process? As long as you keep tabs on, as I think Professor Horgan said, what is being settled and how. So that you can think about compliance in terms of the members.

I think that's true, although I think -- actually I'm sort of thinking back to when I was involved in Ofcom in terms of regulating complaints, fairness and privacy complaints -- that most often people, they may not know what their rights are, but they actually have a very clear ...

No, absolutely.

Yes, although I think that works out -- I mean, in Germany there's very vibrant public space, public debate blogs that enter into debate over this. It's almost as if the press council is one area of debate and regulation. But if the press council cannot oblige one of ...

It's a very difficult question to answer.

In Germany, I think you can point to -- I mean, I pointed to two examples where press council members were required to publish the determinations of the press council adjudication, and in one case Bild newspaper put the headline as "Crazy Press ...

The decision is due in the autumn. I think New Zealand, the decision is due in the autumn on their -- maybe there's some reason why they're all waiting. It's also due in the autumn. The Danish parliamentary scrutiny is also due in the autumn.

No.

The government hasn't yet made its decision.

The Convergence Review in Australia or --

Well, I think there is an issue about convergence. And I have to say, I started looking at this about a year and a half ago for the Reuters Institute, before the phone hacking scandal. So just looking at the discrepancies that now seem to be arising between not so ...

Since I published this, the newspapers association in Canada convened a conference, and are now effectively consulting on what the future might be, because they are very aware that they're -- there is a real tension here.

Voluntary members of the Press Council began to see the press councils as ...

Yes.

I believe they are.

I think the broad distinction, as I mentioned very briefly earlier on, is between the Scandinavian countries and the others.

I think the Scandinavian countries, as you say, it's a much higher -- the starting point is a thou shalt not, that you start from a position where you do ...

Well, I suppose to say that the examples that I've drawn on that interest me in terms of compliance comes to this issue of: is regulation something that you try as far as possible to avoid, and to slough off, and to make sure is as minimal as possible ...

That's exactly it. It's an issue of credibility. And I think people have talked about "kitemarks" here.

Kitemarks, I think you associate with things like boilers and pieces of equipment. I think this is more like the sort of Fairtrade Mark, where Fairtrade says to you, "Our products ...

Yes. I think Press Council membership that is voluntary -- I mean, one of the leading incentives is that you have access to a very easy and swift complaints mechanism, whoever you take complaints from, whether it's public or purely the individuals concerned, and that's hopefully a way in ...

That's exactly right. And that's where the Irish model, which you heard about this morning, I think is very clever because I know they don't have a whole bundle of these. They just look at defamation. But it seems to me that what the Defamation Act in ...

I don't know if I can pursue that thought. I know -- I don't want to add countries into the mix, willy nilly, but I would quite like to mention New Zealand in that context.

There's recently been a Law Commission review in New Zealand, and it's ...

Yes.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it does have value. I think online providers are realising that, you know, they could be caught by some of the restrictions that might potentially be placed on them exercising freedom of expression certainly in a way, and yet not have benefits that traditional journalism have had ...

Well, another positive is they don't pay at the moment. So they are accepted in and they're sort of freeloading, as it were, on the system while the Danes try to catch up. So they haven't yet worked out a funding mechanism. They only pay if they ...

Well, they're interested. It was mentioned to me that they're interested to see what happens here. But I would say only in Australia is the Convergence Review, because it's looking completely across platforms, and actually looking to -- suggesting dismantling the broadcasting licensing regime at the same time ...

So Australia, under the Convergence Review, new media would be caught equally as old media, depending on whether they hit that threshold.

For the other countries, I would say they are as -- they're on the back foot as far as new media is concerned, I think as we are ...

Well, I'll talk about what Australia is proposing in had a moment. But as the press councils stand at the moment, all bar Denmark are voluntary systems. So there isn't an issue in terms of whether you're large or small.

But in the Scandinavian countries, you are ...

No, there is a Finnish -- set out in the Media Act in Finland there is a right to reply, and there is one in Germany under the German constitution.

But when I asked the press councils about this, they said, "You must understand that is entirely separate to the scope ...