Mm-hm.

I think you could build training on both sides, couldn't you? I don't quite know how you do that.

On both sides we need to understand each other's worlds a little more, perhaps, as well.

Just briefly on the issue of training for both parties, I feel certainly for reporters the traditional route was up through local newspapers, where if you made a mistake, you soon found out about it. That doesn't tend to happen any more. You would have to go and call ...

Yes. I think if you respect your organisation, you don't tend to brief against it, you don't tend to leak about it.

Yes.

Yes, it's more than one --

We don't know what they're suggesting yet, but certainly it feels like that at the moment, because information is being constantly channelled through the official sources and police officers are not willing to talk, and they're scared of talking. That's what's happening.

I think, as I've said, the way to stop corruption, to my mind, is to have openness and to have integrity and to perhaps give people more training in ethical issues and encourage personal responsibility, to reiterate the law, but I think closing down communications and only allowing information ...

I don't think so, no. I mean, having heard last week's evidence, there was certainly a lot of tension at Scotland Yard at the time of Bob Quick leaving and all of those issues and it was very marked, the tension, and the hostility at times was open ...

No.

Not really.

It depends. It depends whether it was in the public interest, who the police officer was, whether it was accurate, whether it talked to a serious issue or not.

Human beings do gossip. I can't say that I haven't had any conversations with a police contact who hasn't gossipped about a colleague, but whether I print that or not is another thing.

What, about an operation, you mean?

I think -- I keep repeating myself, but I think we already have laws and guidelines in place, and I think they should be reiterated. I'm sure they have been now. I think you have to trust police officers, who are, after all, trusted with investigating serious crimes in this ...

Yes.

Yes.

No, it's not at all. I don't think so, no.

No --

No. I have done in the past when I was younger and it leads to big misunderstandings.

I think first of all I'd listen, and then I'd say, "For clarity, what can I use and what do you want to be -- do you want some of this to be unreportable?" You know, I'd clarify.

Yes, but I personally always clarify with the person I'm talking to about what they mean by that phrase, so I know where I am.

I think most British journalists see "off the record" as you can use the information but you can't quote me and I wouldn't necessarily quote off-the-record information, I would try and use it as a context.

Off-the-record briefings can be very helpful. I mean, you have to clarify what you mean by "off-the-record".

I think if that's coming from a police officer, that's wrong.

What are we talking about here? Because I think any journalistic organisation, if it discovered through a source, not a police source but another source, that somebody of note might have been arrested, I think lots of organisations would send photographers to that police station.

Yes, but I'm not aware where that information is coming from, and I'm not aware of my colleagues or other people on other papers being told by police officers. I am not aware of that.

Obviously I've read, of course, but I'm not aware --

I mean I'm not aware of it personally.

I'm not aware of it, no.

No.

I don't think I have, no.

What, in an authorised way or unauthorised way?

That's part of my broad concern that you can't just trust the official sources of information, yes.

Yes, I do, and I think different organisations -- you know, if you're the Evening Standard, it probably is very much part of your bread and butter to do those operations because it's your -- it's a different kind of newspaper, and yes, I think they can be beneficial ...

Well, you're not allowed to across the privacy -- you're not given that kind of access, in my mind, in my experience, and obviously if we did, if a picture was taken of somebody being arrested, I think editorially we would decide to black out the face. I think ...

I'm not -- I don't know, that's never happened, that's never kind of been an area that's happened to me.

Privacy, legal proceedings, yes, exactly.

From memory, and I haven't done it for a while, it's very tightly controlled. You're absolutely controlled about what you can and can't photograph and where you can stand and what you can say, I suppose.

It is of interest, but it's only of interest if I flesh it out with other information. You know, there's currently at the moment going on an anti-gang operation in the Metropolitan Police. We don't seem to be able to get access to that at the moment ...

Because it's all about the official lines of the Metropolitan Police showing themselves, whatever they want to show, whether it's being tough post the riots or being tough on drug gangs or being tough, currently, on street gangs. I'm not sure you'd get much out of ...

I haven't actually done it for a long time because I don't think I get much out of it, to be honest, so I can't actually give you examples.

You'd go to the Press Bureau, or if you knew an officer who was running an operation, you might ask him first, and then he would probably go to the press office and liaise with them.

Depends on the operation. You'd probably go to a specialist press office within the Met, if it's specialist crime or serious crime or ...

Well I don't deal with the Commissioner level all the time. If I phone Merseyside press office and I ask to speak to a police officer, they generally try and accommodate, they don't obstruct. Nine times out of ten, they've been able to provide me with that ...

Yes. I didn't intend to make that link, but --

I don't think -- you know, if I am making demands on them that they don't want to satisfy, they're perfectly entitled to say, "We're not giving you that information at this stage", and they do say that, "We can't go there at this time", they ...

It does depend on the inquiry, because some inquiries absolutely require publicity as they're hunting suspects, so it depends on the individual inquiry. I think the police understand that in a major investigation, there is a lot of public concern. In a child abduction, for example, there's a ...

I can't comment on that.