To the first part, sir, the -- it's not common, because we were endeavouring to forge a new relationship. Prior to my appointment, the chief inspector had been the principle adviser to the Home Secretary about professional matters; this design was I was supposed to be more independent.

The actual ...

Well, I think the common ground is potential conflicts of interest and priorities and the fact that in all of these, the common feature they share is they're all highly charged and stakes are high. So I do think there's common ground, and there's common ground in ...

There was -- I think there was a second -- again, in the margins of other business conversation with another more senior official, but my understanding was that, as with a number of other options, discussion ensued with the ministers and the Home Secretary at the time, and there was no appetite ...

I -- in the margins of other business, I had a discussion, as far as I can recall, with a Home Office official on the 9th, who asked for my view about the story. This was just an oral exchange. There were a lot of other things going on but this ...

That's correct, and I'm aware, too, of the Inquiry's reporting timeframes and I have discussed that with Mr Baker so that the work can, where at all possible, align with that so that our thoughts are informed, and likewise, if we have any useful evidence or material ...

We have some influence, and we try to know our place as well. The only other thing I would say is it is sometimes mistaken from -- externally that the publication of a view by an independent body like ourselves is a matter of some significance to chief constables and police ...

Well, not everyone agrees that, but from my perspective, we do. They are not always all accepted. We do -- with particular ones where we feel it is pressing, we do follow through at some length. For example, the G20 affair and all of the things that went with that and ...

The recommendations are normally -- we endeavour to make most of the recommendations as sensible as possible so that they are compelling.

HMIC has the power to inspect the efficiency and effectiveness of police forces and currently police authorities. That will change in November. It will be restricted to the police forces.

Since January 2, I have sought and at my behest, we have had power to seize documents and to enter ...

Just to close it, I suppose the rationale for the Chief Constable is that he or she sees things in the round, both from inside and looking from outside the organisation, and that they do not become overly preoccupied with the degree of detail that will you, sir, would expect ...

I can understand the question, sir. The systemic answer -- and I am interested in system, and I hope we get to that later. The systemic answer is that the Deputy Chief Constable normally rides shotgun effectively on these issues for the organisation and in fact will liaise with the police ...

Yes.

I suppose there is theoretically, but only if he or she does not have faith in some the other people who work with them. Particularly my Deputy Chief Constable at the present time, Peter Fahy, I had absolute faith in his integrity. I thought he would make the right judgments ...

Well, my hope is that if a leak occurred that affected the mission of the organisation, I would be told. I did try and scan the media as much as one can, and I did set in motion a research programme to look at how the media were reporting on ...

That's true.

Well, I would like to think that they were not an everyday event, because if there was a briefing that was nonreportable, it would have a rationale. It would not be a conversation, it would not be an exchange of gossip, it would not be something about: can the police ...

The non-reportable briefing was legitimate in attempting to stop some very difficult issues being aired which would not have helped the investigation, quite the reverse, would have loaded the inquiry, and I felt would have directed some attention to the family, who had already -- let us remember this -- suffered enormously ...

It was a briefing where a record was kept. It was not reportable. I may be seen to be quibbling over these things. If one describes these things entirely as "off the record", it sounds like one is uncomfortable, that there is something inappropriate going on, something that, you know ...

I feel that it didn't really land quite in that form. It was the meeting of two worlds. He basically suggested -- he lived in Surrey, and I think in a well-intended way he felt that Surrey hid its light under a bush, or whatever expression you like, and he ...

One came who worked from time to time for Channel 4 and had been used in London, and another -- in their critical incident training -- and another was a freelance journalist, again, who had used, as I understand it, in critical incident training in London. So they were people who had ...

I remember the appointment of Tim Morris. When I came to Surrey, there were a number of really willing and keen, enthusiastic individuals, but their understanding of how both the broadcast and news media worked was limited, and I felt that they were, at times, rather fearful, and because I ...

I think within boundaries that was true. There were discussions about this. It's probably fair to say one of the biggest things I brought was not really that -- that was a particular mechanism -- is I brought critical incident training, which was an intensive roleplay over two or three days ...

It is.

Yes.

Yes.

My memory of it was that -- and I think to a degree, it's still the case now -- different journalists specialised in political affairs, crime affairs, matters of defence and so on, and some journalists become extremely established and authoritative to a degree in their territory. Actually, extremely authoritative. Some ...

Yes.

They were -- there was a few meals -- when I say "meals", there was -- I would have to check the diary for the time. There was a few meals -- there were journalists who were particularly concerned with aspects of Lawrence. The Daily Mail had run a campaign, so they had an ...

I can honestly say that myself and another Assistant Commissioner who was, it were, tasked to look at the past -- I was tasked to look at the future -- the hours were extended and there was really not a great deal of time for that kind of activity, even had we ...

Sorry, Mr Jay, I'm just looking to see the paragraph on the screen. I will -- ah, thank you. Well, I joined after this, but obviously on joining I was brought in with a particular remit, which was to be responsible for part of London, southwest London, to be responsible ...

Yes.

That's, broadly speaking, correct.

Yes, sir. Thank you.

It is my formal evidence in the Inquiry. I have had a subsequent conversation with the Inquiry, as you're aware, Mr Jay.

Denis Francis O'Connor.

The only perfect science, sir.

I think, hopefully, my line agrees with yours, sir, which is in the end you will carve a way forward on this, and we have the benefit of a great deal of hindsight, too, which not everybody had at the time when they made the decisions they made.

Sir.

Mr Jay, I wonder if it would be helpful -- I think somehow or other our names must have got transposed. I think that's for Mr Baker. But what I suggest in relation to the PNC, if it's satisfactory to you, is we'll provide a written response.

I ...

Yes, and so I suppose our role has been to try and look at the system and say, "Well, if the system isn't strong enough to deal with that morphing, that evolutionary thing that's going on, perhaps it needs some strengthening without closing the whole thing down", and ...

Well, what it might help you to do is not always make the right judgment but make as good a judgment as you can, and all professions have ethical dilemmas. The press come to you: "We've got a story about X", and this completely diverts the investigation. Do you ...

Yes.

Mm.

No, indeed. I think other chief constables can be very good at holding your feet to the fire, but it may not be enough in broader considerations, particularly when one gets into the media and politics, as I've already alluded to this issue in terms of trying to set ...

Well, other --

But also for those who are engaged at the top end in these most contested environments, there's a mechanism for them, with some kind of external review group -- we use that. Others do from time to time. Not just a set of police officers, or -- if they're en ...

Yes. So it's a public interest safety valve process in those terms.

Indeed.

And blows.

It would, and I'm not suggesting a specific mechanism, but I can see that unless one addresses that then some of the -- some of the means by which problematic things get revealed would be closed down potentially, because one moves to a stronger framework which tightens down the basis ...