I'm not going to go into that area. I've tried to tell you the context of why we had to rebut this.
I mean, let me say as clearly and as slowly as I can: I have never placed a story in the Daily Mail as a result of phone hacking that I knew came from phone hacking. I know of no cases of phone hacking. Having conducted a major internal enquiry, I'm as confident as I can be that there's no phone hacking on the Daily Mail. I don't make that statement lightly, and no editor, the editor of the Guardian or the Independent, could say otherwise.
I'm prepared to make this -- I will withdraw that statement if Mr Grant withdraws his statements that the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday were involved in phone hacking.